AT4 and its likes

Pergite · #1 June 26th, 2005, 07:00 PM

Hi!

Pergite here, new to this forum but not to the game.
I have always wondered if anti-tank weapons are correctly balanced and modelled in the game. My concern is that modern infantry (AT4 equipped) in SPMBT have IMHO always been too deadly against armoured targets.
The thing is with the AT4 for example that the common infantry section is equipped with four of them. IRL if they where to engage an AFV they will fire all of them simultaniously against one single vehicle. One will probably miss and the others are required just to get the right effect on the target. Shaped charge only punches a tiny hole through the armour and the hits needs to be on the right places to make a kill.
If you dont get a kill on the first try, then you could count on having a wave of 30mm HE comming your way in a hurry.

In SPMBT the infantry always fires one tube at a time and usually score devestating hits if there are some quality in the shooters. Have anyone else had any thoughts on this?

-Pergite

kevin · #2 June 27th, 2005, 03:42 AM

Pergite,

I here what you are saying, and you are right as far as the pure efectiveness of an AT4 against a tank. But... IMHO, I always thought that it was too easy for AFV's to find infantry. Also there is no way to simulate jumping on an AFV, forcing open the hatch and dropping a grenade. So I think that the proper balance has been achieved within the limits of the game.

Also, you can think of each AT4 as a "game shot" For example the primary rifle has 90 shots. IRL that would be 3 magazines full for an entire section!!! Given the way assaults work, I think this is what the original designers intended.

Kevin

PlasmaKrab · #3 June 27th, 2005, 03:45 AM

Would you mean assuming the LAWs are always fired in volleys, then raising HEK and accuracy, and reducing ammo?

Remember the game is IGOUGO, which means that when you have an infantry squad firing several LAWs in a row in the same turn, in 'real time' conditions they might very well be split-second apart. And the accuracy rises between each shot as the firers have a chance to learn and adjust their sight.
And if htey get spotted along the way they can be sure to trip into a 30m-bullets' nest like you said, spare LAWs or not.

Now go and try to refrain an inf squad from wasting all of their LAWs in reaction fire, at top range against an ERA tank...

Does that make few enough shots for you?

Cheers,
Plasma

Pergite · #4 June 27th, 2005, 05:30 AM

Quote:

kevin said:
Also there is no way to simulate jumping on an AFV, forcing open the hatch and dropping a grenade.

Isnt that what the "assault move" is all about? Trained troops in the game automatically charges the tank when its close enough, using frags, satchels, molotovs and everything else at their disposal. Its usually quite efficent.
Lower morale troops howeve get scared of the oncoming tank and sometimes just breaks of their attakcs and flee from it. I first noticed this behaviour now when WinSPMBT was released.

This fleeing behaviour is quite annoying in a scenario I am building with some EOD that are supposed to destroy an enemy ammo dump. When orderd to blow it up, they all of a sudden they get all routed and dont want to be a part of the mission any more.

Pergite · #5 June 27th, 2005, 05:39 AM

Quote:

PlasmaKrab said:
Would you mean assuming the LAWs are always fired in volleys, then raising HEK and accuracy, and reducing ammo?

If you want to have a chance to take out a modern AFV/tank (and survive) your section will need to hit it with everything they have got and then get into cover.
What I was talking about was that a section IRL probably just can kill one tank with what they are carrying and how they are trained.

The problem I discovered when I started exeperimenting with the ammouns of ammo and damage was that there of course are targets that only requires one shot, and wasting them all would be a overkill.

I guess its balanced enough now as it is. Old tanks could only take one hit and new more advanced AT-weapons (MBT-Law) only require one hit... so I guess things evens out over time.

narwan · #6 June 27th, 2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Pergite said:
This fleeing behaviour is quite annoying in a scenario I am building with some EOD that are supposed to destroy an enemy ammo dump. When orderd to blow it up, they all of a sudden they get all routed and dont want to be a part of the mission any more.

Hehe, what do you expect? To have them stand 50 meters from a blowing ammodump? Exploding ammo dumps can do a lot of damage to units in adjacent hexes. It would make sense for troops to get out of the way.
If you want to blow it up, stay at 2 or 3 hexes distance and fire away. It won't take long.

Narwan

KevinRanger95 · #7 July 7th, 2005, 09:21 AM

When we used laws and AT-4s as a squad operation we would use as many as 4 on one vehicle(tank), we knew that one AT-4 or law was no enough. and believe it or not sometimes we knew in our heart that 4 was not enough, because you would almost have to get the same spot twice, and thats kind of hard to do. as much as we could hope for was a mobility kill!

PlasmaKrab · #8 July 7th, 2005, 09:58 AM

Of course you would have been trained to fire LAWs in volleys against modern tanks, and still got few chances for a kill.
Now what about firing at an APC or a truck? Standing? At 50 meters range?

The game rules must be flexible enough for any kind of situation, and you run soon enough into some that are quite not 'out of the book'.

One game turn is 3 to 4 minutes, and there is no clue about what happens when. As I wrote previously here, when your inf squad or AT team fires 3 or 4 LAWs at one AFV before scoring a hit, you can assume that it IS a volley fire indeed. Time just doesn't run linear in a turn-based game!

And from what I have played until now, LAWs seem well balanced enough, and if you ran their specs down, you would end up with very poor AT abilities in your squads.

IanWilliams · #9 July 8th, 2005, 07:43 PM

When I know my squads will face AFVs I usually set their range down to 3-5 hexes and wait for the AFVs to close.

I then turn off the AT weapon, shoot at the AFV with just the LMG 2-3 times and then turn on the AT weapon. While this is something of a "loophole" I found that it dramitically boosts the stowed kill potential of infantry vs. AFVs.

Pergite · #10 July 9th, 2005, 05:00 AM

Quote:

IanWilliams said:
When I know my squads will face AFVs I usually set their range down to 3-5 hexes and wait for the AFVs to close.

I then turn off the AT weapon, shoot at the AFV with just the LMG 2-3 times and then turn on the AT weapon. While this is something of a "loophole" I found that it dramitically boosts the stowed kill potential of infantry vs. AFVs.

So you are saying that you use the LMG to zero in the range to be able to get a direct hit with the AT weapon? I always belived every weapon had its own hit %.