Infantry Casualties at 50m

[Uncle_Joe]

Hi all,

Been playing quite a bit since it came out (and a lot of SP-WW2 for DOS as well). Great games and thanks a lot for the effort!

OK, onto the question/observation:

It seems to me that infantry casualties at 50m are dramatically increased from the DOS version (and this is just from standard rifle fire not even included the often added carnage from grenades and whatnot). They seem to be high almost regardless of circumstance (smoke in the hex, terrain in the hex, 'assault moving' into the hex etc).

I fired up a 39 Russian Campaign against the Poles and the first battle generates a lot of woods. LOS is basically 50m for most of the engagement due to the woods meaning you basically have to walk into the enemy unit to find them. And doing so invariably results in 3-5 casualties from rifle fire alone and being thrown back. Given that you can make no return fire unless you 'stick', it leads to some fairly unassailable positions far in excess of what I would consider to be reality.

In the DOS version, casualties at 50m seemed to be lower on average (although with the occasional heavy loss and throw back). If you could get one guy to stick, you could return fire and put some suppression fire down allowing another squad to come up and start the assault. So far I have been unable to duplicate that ability in the Win version simply because the initial rifle shot is so deadly (again, regardless of conditions).

So, was something done to increase these close action casualties and if so, why? It never seemed out of whack before. And given that its a turn-based game, there is no opportunity for a 'firefight' in these situations. You either get to stay in the hex or you dont with no chance of even firing a single round at the enemy position.

My suggestion, for what its worth, would be to reduce those initial casualties quite a bit and restore the flow of the close-terrain battles. Right now they dont seem to be a lot of fun and there isnt much you can do beside just hope you get lucky and have a guy stick and not retreat (not likely with the casualties inflicted). Sure, you can bombard with arty, but you have to have a clue where the enemy is first and unspotted fire (the only kind you'll get in these situation) is just as likely to hit friendly troops as enemy.

I have no save games, but its easy to recreate. Just make any map with a lot of close terrain. I first noticed it when I was playing a 'Bulge' scenario as the Amis. The Germans just had no chance to every really get shots at my troops. I was killing 4-5 per shot and they never got to 'stick' and fire back. I killed off about 450 German troops losing 6 of my own. I attributed it the AI. Then I've played a number of assault-type scenarios as the attacker into close terrain and the situation is similar...horrendous losses without so much as a shot back at the enemy.

Another suggestion that would probably be difficult coding-wise would be to have the moving troops shoot back once at 50m before being repulsed. That would at least put some suppression potential on the defender and allow follow-up squads to not be walking d#ck in hand into a 'known' ambush and being slaughtered again and again.

Thoughts? Was the code changed? Is it really an improvement over the old results?

Thanks!

[Charles22]

And somebody was complaining earlier of the infantry being too tough. This version 'may' be a bit too easy, but then I know the previous version was way too tough.

[Uncle_Joe]

I think overall, Infantry casualties are fine. Its just the 50m stuff that seems high.

[troopie]

If you think the infantry casualties are too high, ramp up the infantry toughness a little. Personally, I think gameplay (what I've done so far) is just fine.

troopie

[Uncle_Joe]

They are only too high at 50m. If Infantry toughness is cranked up, they will be too tough at other ranges.

Thats why I'm curious if the code changed to increase lethality within 50m.

[Charles22]

I haven't seen enough 50m battles to comment, but just look at the next longest range, 100m. 50m fire ought to be twice as effective, though I never think of it in those terms. Another thing too, every single weapon can engage at 50m, though I see you're talking about rifle fire.

I see too that you think the rifle fire is fine at longer ranges, but if you're making that judgement on what happened in the DOS version, even at that range this version is very different. It seems to me that perhaps you're complaining, if we can call it that, because you're sick of the rifles knocking them into retreats and not being able to get a good crack at them with something more substantial. I know I'm that way a lot of the time, but the way I figure it, though I would rather have it close to hopefully destroy it, if my weakest weapon can knock them off my infantry it's a pretty good exchange most of the time. Man, it's really a bummer when your unit is in thick woods and during the enemy turn during reaction your pioneer only gets to rifle them and they just retreat, knowing full well they'll probably come again and you might not be so lucky especially when they start massing, but if that's what you're thinking there is a semi-solution.

You can just de-activate the rifles or whatever other reaction weapons you don't want firing, but, as I said, I think the weakest weapon doing some harm isn't too bad a deal a lot of the time. It's too bad in situations like that, that you can't tell the units to use their rifles 'last'.

[snake]

Joe,
I know what you mean but the solution, IMHO, is realistic and that is to preceed your advance with plenty of supressive artillery fire then move in. I've found that the defender is usually suppressed enough that every squad you move against them doesn't get shot up and routed. Then just keep after them. If you have engineers, then turn off the rifles so you can 'light them up!' before they retreat.
If you are unsure of their positions, use a rolling barrage that you follow - not too closely.....
And don't forget that a spotter plane or two can tell you a lot before you lay down the barrage...

[Uncle_Joe]

Yes, massed arty can do the trick, but in small engagement there doesnt tend to be a lot of arty of hand for speculative fire.

Also, it just feels wrong in city fights when you cant even engage the enemy. IMO, close in city fighting should involve casualties on both sides and infiltration and surprise. But with the way the system works, thats tough to accomplish because unsuppressed infantry almost automatically spot and engage anything adjacent and with the current lethality fire, kill a handful, and throw the rest back with no counter-fire.

Again, I felt it was about right in the DOS version. I'm just wondering what the change was (if any) and/or the reasoning behind said change. The rules blurb on range even states that units in adjacent hexes arent necessarily at point-blank range to each other so why does nearly every shot seem like its a firing squad?

At the very least perhaps a few more 'go to ground' or 'seek cover' results could occur at 50m to protect against the full brunt of all of the weapons every time. But just reducing 50m rifle casualties in close terrain would be great IMO.

[Smersh]

the problem seems to be that you can never suprise the enemy, they always no you have snuck up on them, even from behind. this is how historically you would attack an enemy at 50m and not get chewed up. (with no artillery or supporting fire)

but I guess you have to assume in every situation that all sides now a fight is going on, and are waiting prepared and ready for enemy.

[Uncle_Joe]

Yes, so to counteract that, there should be pretty good possibility to not inflict lethal fire at that range.