why buy armor?

[bhutnath]

I have played only a handful of games so far. Most games have been with lots of points (6k-30k) on large maps. The last few have been played with vis 80.

It seems to me that in a meeting engagement the tank is absolutely useless. You have barely 40 hexes or 2km to travel, turcks or apc will get your infatry there in 3 turns. Even if you fail to make it that far another 4-5 turns will get you there on foot with ease. Once close to the victory hexes, the infantry is best at holding ground.


lets take a look at the costs. A t90 is about 500 give an take 50 points. While an elite infantry company with gustav antitank (Indian force) comes for 270 points. In my experience, one tank cannot take ground from an infantry company even in open ground given the duration of these games. So for every tank the enemy can add atleast one company of basic infantry can be included. So even when tanks are accompanied by inf platoons one has enough infantry to fight em all.

Armor generaly dies with one successful shot.A couple of plattons of atgm troops over the course of the game will take their toll on enemy armor. While even a lowly infantry platoon takes a long time to find suppress and kill.

A single armored vehicle loss can cost one from 30-500 points. Loose half a company of expensive tanks in the course of the game and your 3k points down! compare this to loosing a whole battalion of inf (Indian) it cost only 270 x 4 = 1000 points.

I just cant seem to see any sense in buying armor. So folks help me out here, what is it about armored units that I am overlooking?

[Mobhack]

hmm - the usual lack of appreciation of the combined arms equation, I think is your problem. You talk tanks vs infantry, with absolutely no mention of the third arm of the triad - the artillery.

Tanks tend to be survivable vs HE (which is why they were developed in WW1) - whereas grunts are still at WW1 levels of protection versus HE.

So - try buying some arty as an antidote to dismounted infantry. (Plus - as arty is not restricted to having LOS, you can pound the ground on the approaches to objectives to discourage walking grunts approaching them).

As to "barely 40 hexes to cover" - then you could always try a wider and/or deeper map perhaps, if you think the default is too small?. (Preferences, map widh and height).

Cheers
Andy

[bhutnath]

I have been playing with max map sizes I think it 200x160. 32 hexes is what you have to travel in these large maps to reach the center, I suspect it may be much less in smaller maps. I do buy lots and lots of arty some time a whioe briade (15-25% of total points). The opponents typicaly has atleast a regiment some times two. Sure arty hurts but it doesnt completely kill the infantry. Even after few turns of bombardment it may get it to run, but then they can always come back. Arty becomes a double edge sword if you go mix it up close with the opponent. Once I have reached the v hexes and nearby forests, buildings and reverse slopes the onus of throwing me out of there is on the opponent. Here is where the infantry seems to shine for me.

the manual says that the rule of thumb for attacking a platoon is to do so with a company. It further suggests that a platton is considered a battery level target (arty). Now if you out number the enemy both in number of infantry platoons and arty (which you will if you have no armor and he does). I cant seem to understand how the armor will help take ground away from the numericaly superior infantry force.

Its true that HE doesnt kill tanks, but it will suppress the infantry allong with enemy tanks making your infantry difficult to spot for enemy armor. Drop enough on a tank and it will run. Becuase of the nature of the objective in meeting engagements the tanks mobility in my opinion seems of limited use against infantry 'hanging around' the v hexes in forests reverse slopes and buildings. Even if opposition manages to suppress your infantry with arty they still have to come and take ground, for which he will need infantry. However more likely than not he is going to be out numbered in arty too (besides being outnembered by the defending infantry force)

The thing is this, once the infantry has reached the victory hexes and nearby areas, it can camp in forest towns reverse slopes etc and exert influnce around the V-hexes. specialy if you have a couple of atgm hidden some where there. The onus of digging em out of there is upto the enemy.


btw, I have noticed even if the light trucks carying infantry is hit by any thing from machine guns, arty, direct tank shots the infantry take no or little damage and just pops out even if the truck blows up. I have never seen a platoon loose most of its men or get wiped out with the truck. I thought if a light trucks takes a direct 155mm shell, nothing would be left of it! if it gets raked by machine guns at 500m lots of infantry men should die?

They seem to make a great ride IMO. very cheap and fast. Sure they give you little protection from arty, but then getting hit doesnt do that much to the infantry any ways!! If you srvive 2-3 turns you are practicaly there to the center of the map. a m113 in Pakistan army cost from 33-35 points while a light truck costs 11.So while a mech platoon costs 850+ a rifle platoon with trucks will cost just 220+154 = 374. Allowing you to buy two companies and more for the price of 1 mech company (while retaining mobility of a mech company). Sure the apc also have machine guns that add to the firepower. Hoever they seem to die too easy in my experience to arty, atgm and tanks (as do light trucks, but atleast they cost 1/3!)

This brings me to another point. It seems that the biggest nemesis of a tanks isnt another tank, its atgm troops!??

I know I am missing some thing here, for surely the tanks are very usefull in real life. Are they under modelled in SP? the tank HE shots dont seem to hurt that much. You fire shells after shell at infantry and not 'wipe them out' even if they are in the open.

[Artur]

bhutnath said:


This brings me to another point. It seems that the biggest nemesis of a tanks isnt another tank, its atgm troops!??

You are right about this. ATGM is greater threat to an armor espevially infantry ATGM well concealed and well dug in.
It is like how deadly the ATGs were to armour in WWII.

IMHO unless a very open terrain (and even there you have to have infantry to a certain extent) your force is (should be) infantry heavy. of course not an only infantry force.

I attach here a document written by myself for the SPWaW Depot academy. While it has a very few minor SPWaW specific things the principles apply to SPWWII and SPMBT as well.

Good gaming,
Artur.

[Artur]

I also suggest you to do the following experiment.

Play a generated battle in 2010 in a not very dense terrain.
1.Set one side to Germany the other side to Russia.
2.Buy troops for both sides for equal points.
3.Buy infantry only to the opponet(AI).
4.Buy infantry mainly to your force BUT also buy some cheap(without TI) APCs for yourself as well, Fuchs with 30mm if you are the Germans or some BTR with equal punch if you are with the Russians. Let's say cca 2-3 APCs per infantry company.
5. When you play keep the APCs well behind the range of the infantry AT platforms (except ATGMS but you will find ATGMs expensive relative to these cheap pieces of metal). Spray every exposed infantry with your mobile MG nests in form of APCs. You will see the difference .

"Oh but then I could buy stronger armor to oppose the APCs" - you may say. And the the story continues as you see .

Good gaming,
Artur.

[Artur]

Finally some more about the usage of armor in modern enviroment. You experienced it right, it is very unforgiving to make any major mistake with your armor units in the recent era (from the 80ies till near future).

What you can do though.
1. Keep distance from infantry, that is good enough to simply negate all threats except the ATGMs.Tanks are devastating enough from greater distance as well.
2. Keep infantry near the tanks to scout for mines and protect the tank from sneaking enemy infantry.
3. Against ATGMs buy armor with VIRSS or ARENA they are ATGM decoys.
4. Smoke the area. If your tanks have TI equipment at least you can negate the cheap ATGMs which do not have TI. And those ATGM systems that do have TI capability they are not cheap as well.
5. Scout with cheaper armor, it can spring ambushes.
6. Keep air defense units near by to prevent helicopters having a shot at your tanks.
7. Use terrain to provide cover for your maneuvering armor. Advance in valleys, not on hill tops.
8. Deploy in keyholed positions (positions with narrow line of sight) that way only a few enemy units can shoot at you, and it is also hardes to spot your unit.
9.Use artillery to suppress the infantry units. While artillery does not kill them it is good enough to prevent them fireing back or at least have less shooting opportunities.Finish the softened infantry with your infantry or armour. Armour is also better to soften infantry than killing them, but it does also a decent job in infantry killing.

In the modern battlefield armor is still an important factor but there are a lot of threats that have to be negated in order to keep them alive.

Artur.

[bhutnath]

Thank you for your extensive response.

I read your article, good stuff.

I recognize the advantage armor and IFV can bring. However, I wonder if in game point terms if they are worth it? In games with large number of points the vicotry hex points comprise of only a fraction of total points. Loss of a single tank can cost one any where from 300-600 points. So loss of say 5 t90 tanks would cost about 2500-3000 points! very diffult to accumulate this kind of points against an opponent with just infantry tucks and arty units.

So even if you fail to capture the V-hexes, I would suspect you can at least draw the game by geting few hugh value armored units with your atgm and arty?

-Ak

[Mobhack]

The point of warfare is to destroy the enemy forced in the field without suffering undue loses yourself.

"Victory hexes" are a simplistic game method of pointing out to (probably civilian) players (and the AI) where might be a good place to go and/or defend, really. Like those paintball gun games where someone takes the flag to "win".

They also help the AI decide when to throw in the towel

There are no such things as "terrain objectives" in modern warfare. Terrain is only of value if it gives you an advantage or denial of it from the enemy confounds any such for him. There may be phase lines and reporting points, but those are to shape the battle plan, not "must throw a million troops at it WW1 style" things.

(It is also a normal point in civilian wargames that these objectives are common to both sides as well!

Look at the points awarded for v-hexes as a bonus, or "gravy" to sweep up after or during the real mission of deleting enemy units (while protecting yours) as appropriate. (while remeberig that both you and the opponent will eventually concentrate in those areas) The paintball type "take the flag to win, regardless of cost" is not appropriate here.

If playing PBEM human against human - you really should consider having no artificial "victory flags" at all. Then you can concentrate on the proper find,fix and strike process on the enemy forces, which is a different task altogether without these "hint markers" plonked on the map! .

Cheers
Andy

[Thexder]

bhutnath said:
So even if you fail to capture the V-hexes, I would suspect you can at least draw the game by geting few hugh value armored units with your atgm and arty?

-Ak

IMO using the standard scoring system in SP doesn't make sense as it undervalues the VLs. What I've found usefull is to use "Weasel scoring" chart that gives VLs their proper value. I send it with this message, I'm sure you'll find it useful.

You might also want to check Weasel's new experimental rules here: http://www.theblitz.org/message_boar....php?tid=37617

One must make own rules for the battles in order to make them as realistic and enjoyable as possible. In MBT arty and infantry are too good in value/price and armor many times next to useless as you've said. In my battles I use the following set of rules, which I've find out to rise the enjoyment in another level: http://koti.mbnet.fi/thexder/Steel/steelrulesIII.html

Cheers,
Jukka

[Thexder]

Here's the file...