Carry Capacity for Jeep, Kuebelwagen, etc.

[TreadHead]

Question on the carry capacity of the Jeep, Kuebelwagen, Schwimmwagen, and the like. "106" seems too high. Since the driver is included, shouldn't these have a carry capacity of "103"?

Also, the jeeps for the British LRDG and SAS have a related capacity characteristic of being a 4 man unit, plus having a carry capacity of "104".

My apologies if this had been covered before...didn't find anything with a search.

Thanks, Ross

[Mobhack]

The default size of the headquarters happens to be 6, so there needs to be the ability to carry them.

cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy

I might be able to add something here. when you say "so there needs to be the ability to carry them" do you mean "so there needs to be the ability to carry them in tiny vehicles"? there are plenty of other slightly bigger vehicles that can actually carry 6 men.
How about carrying them in a light truck? that realy does have a carrying capacity of 6? after all HQ usually comes with some pretty bulky equipment various radios map tables etc, they cant actually do their job without this stuff. I mean even the kettenkrad has a carrying capacity of 6 surely you cant fit it all that stuff into a kettenkrad.
Personally I think its much more important to give jeeps etc there correct carrying capacity than to be able to incorrectly fit a whole HQ unit into such a tiny vehicle, especially when a light truck would be just as good. Of course I prefer correct carrying capacitues as I like the game to be authentic wherever possible.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

OK then Chuck, I'll try to explain it to you. You won't like the answer but we're all used to that by now. I will say upfront I am not the least bit interested in "debating" this issue with you so you can accept the answer or not.

I'm so glad you "like the game to be authentic wherever possible." and this is one of those cases where we have a different idea of where the "wherever possible" line is.

Let's use the German OOB as an example. There are 6 vehicles that fall into the "Utility Vehicle" category in that OOB.........

156 - Kettenkraftrad
183 - Schwimmwagen
195 - Kuebelwagen
453 - Kfz 69
454 - Kfz 15
802 - Schlepper UE

..........and all have a carry capacity of 6 even though it's a stretch to say the Kettenkraftrad or the Schlepper UE could carry 6 men. One way around that which was used in the past ( and still do for some of the light amphib Weasels )is to call these (2)Kettenkraftrad or (2) Schlepper UE and then just "assume" that these "two" vehicles always moved together and were destroyed together. This brings complaints from other people, also terribly concerned with keeping the game "authentic wherever possible" , that this is "Unrealistic". The REASON they all have a carry capacity of 6 is because people expect when they buy a formation that includes these vehicles that they can actually load the troops into them and if an formation is built with a half dozen vehicles that all have different carry capacities ( let's call that the "authentic carry capacity" ) they get quite rightly pissed at us and send us "bug" reports that such-and-such formation cannot be loaded in into this-or-that vehicle when they try to use those "authentic" units. There are limited number of unit classes and not every specialty vehicle can rate it's own special class

Is everyone with me on this so far???

So if it will help try thinking about this a little less literally. Maybe, try thinking of the obvious examples as being (2) vehicles since you are well aware that the game does not allow splitting a unit and loading them into two vehicles and if that doesn't work then try this......The world record for cramming people into a Volkswagen Beetle is 24. 6 in a Kublewagen wouldn't really be that big a deal would it? We only allow 13 men to be carried on a T-34 but it won't take anyone concerned with "accuracy" long to find photos with considerably more than 13 Russians on a T-34. We have no intention of changing the carry capacity of the T-34. It's a game design decision to allow these "utility" vehicles a , perhaps, higher than "normal" carry capacity .

OK?

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Thanks for taking the time to explain this, a very fluid answer indeed.
I see your problem with the unit classes. I think there are none left? but no problem heres the solution, continuing with the German OOB as an example only the schwimmwagen, Kuebelwagen and Kfz 15 are real utility vehicles. The remaining three vehicles can simply be removed from the utility unit class (026). Kfz 69 is a light truck, Unit class 183, Kettenkraftrad is an artillery prime mover, unit class 180. Schlepper UE has any number of roles but doesnt appear to have provision to carry any passengers whatsoever, and appears in unit classes 056 and 180 anyway. Only 4 German formations use the utlity vehicles, two contain only utility vehicles so no problems for them. That leaves only two formations, 235 PzAufklKp (sw) and 285, FJg Spaehtrp[G] assuming we are going to use "authentic" carrying capacities (say 4 but I prefer 3) PzAufklKp needs no change, only FJg Spaehtrp[G] needs work, currently it is one kubelwagon, one 4 man scout group and two snipers so we have to lose the snipers. Thats Germany done.
Without providing any detail I have also had a look at USA and again this OOB doesnt seem to pose any problems.
I am of course willing to work out for you and test what needs to be done in every OOB in order to give utility class vehicles "authentic" carrying capacities.
I do think it is a problem squeezing 6 men into a kubelwagon, as it depends on what gear they have if its the heavy MG and ammo then they probably weight as much as 10 men, six regular infantry with full kit is also unlikely. Six small slim university students perhaps.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Chuck, here's the short, polite answer

NO

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

chuckfourth said:
I do think it is a problem squeezing 6 men into a kubelwagon, as it depends on what gear they have if its the heavy MG and ammo then they probably weight as much as 10 men, six regular infantry with full kit is also unlikely. Six small slim university students perhaps.

The default size of the headquarters happens to be 6, so there needs to be the ability to carry them.

Note Andy doesn't speak of MG teams or infantry with full kit. And if you don't like the idea of MG teams or full kit infantry being carried in Jeeps and kübelwagens, there's a simple way to avoid it: don't do that. Works for me so far.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
Look its fine by me if the powers dont care about this its their call.
But its a little bit more than kubelwagons. Its more about vehicles such as the Schlepper UE. Note this vehicle cannot carry -any- passengers but is classed as a utility vehicle clearly wrong.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Yeah lets REALLY sweat the small crap.....that'll make the game "better"

The Schlepper UE may not be designed to carry infantry but neither were most tanks yet they still can and do. Infantry will find a way to ride on something if there are flat surfaces to sit on so at some point in the past this was added to the utility class for whatever reason( and that Schlepper UE's been there awhile now as a "utility vehicle" ) Maybe it shouldn't but looking at the photo it's not hard to image six infantrymen finding a place to ride if need be and it's NOT like we called it a infantry carrier. It's just a small totally insignificant vehicle that someone thought in a pinch could carry infanrty so it was made a utility vehicle. I'm surprised you haven't noticed that the Artillery prime mover version can carry NINE men or that the "Feldwagen" can carry 20.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
OK then maybe we should sweat some slightly bigger crap, Something closely related to carrying capacity, maybe you noticed the tests I did on your behalf in the "more newbie ??'s" in the Winspww2 forum, Do you think thats its realistic that your 13 men packed on the back of a stationary T34 receive just one casualtie when an unseen MG42 opens up at them at 150m?
Best Chuck.