Erk, Culture shock

[Listy]

Ok so my last game of MBT was some time ago (maybe even a version 2.something) however me and a mate decided to patch up to date and have a PBEM.

That was a Shock to the system. Rooski Tanks now seem damn near untouchable. I've fired off nearly every AT round my chally company carries, and barely seem to have scratched the surface. I quite quickly worked out that anything over 1000m is going to bounce off anything other than a T-62, most of the time.

Infantry seem to have suddenly become more vulnerable and move like old people ski. Very slowly! Maybe too slowly, as a dismounted attack through woods now seems impracticable.

If only our gentleman's agreement of "No MLRS" was rescinded.

This isn't a complaint, just a comment on V4 culture shock. Especially the Tanks. those Damn commies used to be killable. Oh well next time its change ends, US Vs My rooski horde, that's going to be even more horrid.

Edit: I take it back, you need to be under 500m to kill a T-80.

[Mobhack]

Which Challenger, and which T-80?.

Using solid shot, the 120mm L30 94 gun on unit No 27 will kill most later model T-80 (about 70 or 69 frontal armour) to 1750 metres, and possibly out to 2250 on rare occasions. And the earlier ones with 60 and 50 something frontal aspect, to 3000-3500.

The earlier 120mm tank gun (No 102, 84 model) will deal with the contemporary armoured ones (B/BV) to slightly over 1 KM. (45 at 1 km, with occasionally up to 50). best 47 at 1500, so it could do a T-80BV at that range against the turret, on occasion, and the HEAT (HESH) will deal with those models at all ranges, if it gets a good roll (no fuse failures etc) and the ERA is not triggered. The 1998 "U" model T-80 is somewhat difficult from the front...

Best HEAT performance will be about 80 - so the Russian advanced armours get frontally impenetrable by that in about the late 80s or early 90s.

Of course - we have the L30 CHARM 120mm available from 1994, but if anyone knows different, it could be moved back a year or 2 to deal with the T-80U. Or, the L11A5 could do with a bit more "poke" - if you have any info, please feel free to share.

Naturally - if you fight to their flanks, then side shots (at low angles of attack) will whack them at any useful range. The best steel side is about 26 - which the 1984 gun will reliably penetrate to 3500 metres. So try to get them into a "U" shaped kill sack !.

Cheers
Andy

[Listy]

Heh, most of the T-64BV's where disabled by mobility kills at about 2Km.

It's 85ish we're fighting and I believe he's using T-80U's. Although much to my chagrin I've just had my turn and punted 4 Rounds of Fin into the front of a T-80(with some letters after its name) at 100m with a hight advantage to me, and failed to nail the bugger. The Armour penetration was the same each time! 53 Vs 54.

What was really curious was the fact the Points values for the T-80U is almost The same as the Chally1, and yet the T-80 gets EDZ and an AT missile. AV's seem to be roughly similar though. Although the Chally does get TI.

The Good news is, I've got about a platoon or two that have just finished bombing up at an Ammo Depot, and we're into the Knife fighting phase, and I suspect he's running out of operational tanks...or at least I hope he is!

Another thing we've (yeah both of us thought it independently) noticed is that EDZ seems to be binary. One turn it'll stop everything in sight, Other turns it does nothing. There seemed to be no middle ground in a turn. But that could just be human Selective memory.

Edit: I did have a very good article bookmarked about CHARM rounds. Dunno where it is though. I can find you some details on a British XL-40 though... please can I have one of them on my Chally?





(See those tiny little 9milly sabot's lying around the tank shell? Those are CHARM rounds )

[Listy]

I got to say I'm beginning to think that Infantry are too weak.

As they're far to slow for manoeuvre in terrain now, and far to easy to beat up. I've just gone through a dug infantry position in woods with a column of unsupported T-62's. My opponent did exactly the same only with T-64's in a previous game.

It just seems that before hand if you tried to charge Ala Israel Yom Kipour war style in woods with armour you should lose the an awful lot. So far I've lost about a platoon of tanks for shoving a dug in US rifle platoon out of its position.

It all seems far to easy.

[Marek_Tucan]

Might have a harder time against a platoon of equal morale and skill, but with RPG's due to RPG longer range? Though might not be such an issue in a forest. However I managed in one PBEM to put out of service a platoon of Leo 2A4's with a platoon of sacrificed unsupported infantry, leaving two immobilised Leos for flank shots from T-72's once they arrived and with most of the infantry surviving. But of course, infantry are slow to move and are easily outmaneuvred by mechanised force.

[DRG]

The ONLY change to infantry movement in the last few years was made to movement in built up urban areas. Nothing else except for slopes which count extra going up but not down whereas in the past they counted extra both ways. The end result is moving through forest generally costs two hexes per turn the same as it did in Version 1

Actually what you have proven is this:

We have reached the stage where no matter what we do SOMEBODYwill complain they liked it the way it was before so further change is pointless as it will only generate further complaint

Don

[Listy]

Wasn't complaining as such, just making an observation. Sorry if it came over like a complaint.

Look at it this way, If I wasn't happy would I be playing endless streams of PBEM's with a mate? Would I have put all those many hours into the LZ X-ray campaign too?

[Nightblade]

Listy said:
I got to say I'm beginning to think that Infantry are too weak.

In some of my battles, i could swear some cheap rebel infantry were not made of flesh.
I always remember that random battle in which i had an AH64 gunning with its chaingun and firing his hydras 70, turns after turns on an enemy squad on a forest border without them getting any casualties.

At least they were pinned down, but it was impressive to see them taking that much punishment without any kind of loss.

As they're far to slow for manoeuvre in terrain now, and far to easy to beat up. I've just gone through a dug infantry position in woods with a column of unsupported T-62's. My opponent did exactly the same only with T-64's in a previous game.

It just seems that before hand if you tried to charge Ala Israel Yom Kipour war style in woods with armour you should lose the an awful lot. So far I've lost about a platoon of tanks for shoving a dug in US rifle platoon out of its position.

It all seems far to easy.

In the preferences you can change the infantry thoughness and the tanks thoughness, for both side or only 1 if you want.
It really makes a difference.

Now something you need to remember is that while a tank may be able to destroy in few time lot of infantry, if you lose that tank in one of the firefights with the troops, in the end of the game, you could have lost the battle.

In term of points, losing a tank can cost you so much that you may not be able to get more than a draw.

That's why i do not "charge" with my tanks in battle anymore without having the infantry exploring the terrain first, as in the various random battles i setup, i learnt how much losing the heavyweights due to some unseen AT launcher or ATGM can prevent me to obtain what i think often to be at least a marginal victory.

[Listy]

Nightblade said:
That's why i do not "charge" with my tanks in battle anymore without having the infantry exploring the terrain first, as in the various random battles i setup, i learnt how much losing the heavyweights due to some unseen AT launcher or ATGM can prevent me to obtain what i think often to be at least a marginal victory.

I'm curious, how do you move them through terrain at anything close to a useful speed? Surely advancing at one hex a turn means your attack grinds along and is a sitting duck for arty, and runs the risk of timing out?

[Marek_Tucan]

Hard to describe, but if used properly, foot infantry can advance quite swiftly - best thing would be playing few "infantry only" PBEM - say infantry has to be foot, only limited transpoort and armored assets...