Allies, and declarations of war...

[Taqwus]

I wonder if it will ever be possible to, say, find out who declared war on who. In a game where one's trying to have a peaceful, allied victory (!) but where one's allies are constantly squabbling, it might be reasonable to know who's being the troublemaker.

An weaker ally complaining that so-and-so declared war on them and would aid please be forthcoming, would be even better, but even simple DOW mentions would be nice.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Rollo]

Yes, that would be useful sometimes. The only problem is that it is too easy just putting the blame on the the player who actually declared war, since the other one could have performed acts of war without formally declaring. For example you would put the blame on the US after they have been attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor. (But maybe I am missing the point.)

Rollo

[Puke]

yeah, you could say something absurd like: the US cut off the petrolium supply to Japan, and isolated them from trade with other western nations, forcing their industry into the ground and provoking an attack against our conveniently placed obsoleet ships so that we would have an excuse to go to war.

is something like that what you were thinking about saying? it would not be too far off the mark, tho it was one of our more brilliant strategic moves. seriously, who declares war does not make a whole lot of difference. even with no treaty, or a NI treaty, one empire could be interdicting shipping or attacking things without ever declaring war.

you can do nasty things like raid a planet and claim its in your borders so its not an act of war. the person that declairs war is probably most often not even the agressor. and besides, why are agressors bad? just keep yourself informed of the political situation, and pick a side. nobody likes a person who sits on the fence.

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[Rollo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Puke:
[snip] is something like that what you were thinking about saying? it would not be too far off the mark, ...

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I am not sure, if this is adressed at me, but what I meant was that (IIRC) Japan attacked Pearl Harbor without a declaration of war and the US declared war after that. Maybe I am mistaken, my (american) history isn't that great. All I meant was, if you just look at who declared war, you are not getting the whole picture .

Rollo

[Taqwus]

I'm mostly trying to figure out which among AI "allies" is being a troublemaker; they tend to squabble among each other, even though there may be a complete absence of military action. My warp ships even went about reducing the connectivity of the graph; maybe completely isolating AIs would have helped. *shrug*

It would be trivial to take over, say, everybody but the Phong (who have stayed brotherly throughout, and keep asking for partnership), but I was trying to be Mr. Nice (but Incredibly Heavily Armed and Dangerous) Guy.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Puke]

indeed Rollo, you are correct, and i meant no offense. you could look at the situation two ways. one being that they attacked without declaring war, and we followed with a declaration of war. two being that we destroyed their industrial capabilities without attacking, and they followed up with an attack. either way, I think that we agree on the point that you just cant tell by simply knowing who declaired war.

but for Taqwus's problem with the AI (i sort of thought we were talking about humans) then i suppose it would help. since one race or the other will have go go anyway, you might just pick the one who is at war with the MOST people, and settle many conflicts with a single blow. as for killing warp points, lost contact does not count for a peacefull victory condition.

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[Ratso]

""yeah, you could say something absurd like: the US cut off the petrolium supply to Japan, and isolated them from trade with other western nations, forcing their industry into the ground and provoking an attack against our conveniently placed obsoleet ships so that we would have an excuse to go to war.""

Or you could be even more absurd and ignore the fact that Japan had invaded China 10 years earlier and the US (in concert with the League of Nations) took economic measures to restrict Imperial Japan's warfighting capability.

But the point is made that its sometimes difficult to determine which Power may actually be at fault. After all, you could be the victim of a lack of education or outright misinformation.

[capnq]

Part of the problem in SE IV's terms is that there's no real difference between War and No Treaty. You don't have to declare war to attack your enemy; all that a declaration of war does is notify the other empires that you're fighting, via the Treaty Grid.

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Puke]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ratso:
After all, you could be the victim of a lack of education or outright misinformation.

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hey, i think im being maligned. I never suggested that we unprovokedly interfered with them, nor that we were not wise to force Japan into a war with us. in fact, i destinctly recall praising our prudence in the matter. But if we were being all laize-faire over Europe, i dont know why we got our undies in a bunch over Manchuria.

despite my being slightly disparaged, i think we are all in basic agreement over the topic at hand, though.

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ratso:
""yeah, you could say something absurd like: the US cut off the petrolium supply to Japan, and isolated them from trade with other western nations, forcing their industry into the ground and provoking an attack against our conveniently placed obsoleet ships so that we would have an excuse to go to war.""

Or you could be even more absurd and ignore the fact that Japan had invaded China 10 years earlier and the US (in concert with the League of Nations) took economic measures to restrict Imperial Japan's warfighting capability.

But the point is made that its sometimes difficult to determine which Power may actually be at fault. After all, you could be the victim of a lack of education or outright misinformation.

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There are some who believe this line of thinking might be applicable to current events. Take a look at http://counterpunch.org/flyingbombs.html and see that the conspiracy theories have already begun. The US does have a history of going to war over suspiciously convenient provocations (The loss of the Maine in Havana harbor, for example, giving cause for the Spanish American war) but using civilians for this purpose would require some incredibly cynical operatives in the govt. apparatus. We'll just have to see if the conspiracy theorists can come up with anything like proof.