Captured Weapons/Resistance Groups

[Lt. Ketch]

A discussion that was taking play in another thread caused me to wonder and at the point I was about to hit the post button, I realized that I was braching off of a tangent of a tangent of the originial thread. So, I figured I'd stard a new discussion.

This was the post I was replying to and I think that RERomine's quote will start the tread out nicely.

Originally Posted by RERomine

There have been instances where I used so called "captured" equipment, but only because it was on my purchase list to begin with. I recall using some T-34s in North Africa as the Germans for some reason, probably for the novelty of it. It is unlikely they would have really shipped any there.

Within the game, it's all personal preference. There is no "wrong" way about things. If people want to use captured equipment or simulate it somehow, more power to them.

I've bought Pz-34s (Captured T-34/76s) as germany too, more for the mobility and novelty of it than anything else. You got to love that 20+ movement when compared to the 13-14 movement of pre-Panther panzers.

One of my interests has been a Partisan campaign in the Balkans. I've started it a couple of times, looking at OOBs, buying proposed forces, etc. I figure that those sorts of guerilla forces would have a conglameration of stuff that they would be using. My basic idea was to use the Yugoslav OOB as a basis, but impliment obsolete Russian units (to represent equipment that the USSR might have sent them) and the occational German unit. The Yugoslav OOB does have units called "Ustasha tank" that are basicly German kit, so I could techniclly change the name and call it good. The Ustasha and Partisans hated each other as the Ustasha was the German backed resistance and the Partisans were the USSR backed resistance so you would never see "Ustash Tank" fighting for the Partisans.

You got to love the Chetnicks though, they were the UK/US backed resistance and they would fight against both the Ustasha and the Partisans, but would also fight with the Germans and Ustasha against the Partisans. Read "Force 10 from Navarone" or "Partisans" by Alistar Maclean for some fun stories based on the politics. So if you want to take on the world with just about anybody as your ally, play the Chetneks

Sorry, small tangent.

So, the questions or issues I would like to discuss are:

1-What are the guidlines, paramaters, generall chaotic thoughts you have for captured equipment? Cross, Imp, RERomie and Firestorm have all commented on this already so don't feel a need to again unless you would like. For their thougths read posts 13-25 from this thread - Abandoned Artillary

2-Has anyone tried to play a resistance/guerilla group based battle/campaign?

[Imp]

My thoughts but remember its a game so fun can prevail but use common sense so.

Capture a basic vehicle like a truck.
This is Russia in the 40s how many people have driven 1 or know how to maintain it carry out basic repairs.
Your farmers probably would be the guys if lucky enough to have a tractor, otherwise the guy that drives the truck picking up the produce lumber or whatever. Everybody else? Vehicles were not exactly a common thing in Russia at that time.
Now give them a tank, its probably going to pack up due to abuse & really would be better suited to use in a scenerio as you would edit experience drastically down.
The guys probably just got the hang of driving it when it packs up & the gunner can't practice because he only has the ammo in the tank.
It certainly would not be second nature like driving a car becomes so in fact the lack of skill means they are in a mobile coffin.
The same goes with infantry weapons including guns, they can probably fire reasonably well but they will breakdown or run out of ammo.
Hope that makes some sense but I think troops generaly stick to there own weapons occasionaly using enemy stuff for that engagement but soon getting rid of on the whole.
The reasons are as stated he has an ammo supply, knows one hopes how to maintain it & has used it more often so is more comfortable better with it. The better the soldier the more likely he is to be able to use & maintain diffrent equipment well.

[PatG]

Russians are different from a lot of other partisans. Many were encircled Red Army reconfigured as stay behind forces. Further they had a lot of support via air, through the Pripet marshes or through gaps in the German lines. While there were undoubtedly ex-tank crews in the partisans, I would want to see some historical support before I start handing them T-34s

[Lt. Ketch]

Imp - You bring up some valid points in regards to knowing the enemy's stuff. I do know that there were individuals in various contries that preferred the armerments of their enemy, but I also know that they were probably few and far between. Although, the stories I hear in regards to the Stern SMG that you Brits came up with say that almost everybody that was handed a Stern would try to find anything else, even German arms as soon as possible, with the MP 40 being the preferred. On the flip side, I do know of a German commando officer that appartently preferred a silinced stern to just about anything else, so it goes both ways.

It stands to reason that most resistance units whould fight with "enemy" weapons as they would be the easist to get. If you look at Partisan units in the Yugoslav OOB (and I believe in the USSR OOB as well) many of them use Kar 98s and other german small arms. It makes sense that if you needed guns and ammo it would be a lot easier to steal them off dead soldiers/ammo dumps/weapon supplies than try to get the supplies out of the supporting country, whether it was partisans and the USSR or the French resestance and the UK.

PatG - Also some valid points. In my experiments I haven't given them T-34s yet, but generally the older, lighter models. I think I once looked at a section of BTs in one go and a T-70 in another. Nothing heavy (no support) and nothing in large numbers (mainly one or four AFVs total.)

[RERomine]

I'm not an expert on partisan or guerrilla warfare, but it seems to me that one of their "bread and butter" abilities was being able to disappear into the hills, forests, mountains, etc. Seems to me it would be hard to disappear with a tank. While I could be wrong, wouldn't they be more likely to strip it of anything useful and leave the empty hulk behind?

There is a lot that can be stripped off of a tank. The first thing would obviously be the machine guns and ammo for them. Main gun ammo would be a good source of explosives for mines and such. Radios might come in useful as well. And there is fuel that could be used for other vehicles, oil, wire, batteries, etc. A tank could be a resistance fighter's convenient store of supplies. All that stuff keeps them more in line with what they are comfortable with, hit and run tactics.

I wouldn't be as concerned with them using captured small arms. Even if it's something they haven't seen before, someone would figure out how works and be able to maintain it. The main criteria for the partisan is basically, is that weapon better than what the already have. Battle winners have been picking up dropped weapons for centuries if it is better than what they currently have and they have the ability to use it. Should they run out of ammo, they will just pick up something else if it's available. I sure they wouldn't discard there "old" weapon anyhow. It would just be given to someone who doesn't have one at all.

[Cross]

Imp,

Driving an unfamiliar vehicle wouldn't be that hard. My grandfather worked part time for a garage, that also ran a taxi service, when he was 14 years old, probably the late 1920s, early 30s. One day the owner told him to get in a car and drive about 10 miles to pick up someone from a train station. That was the first time he drove.

Even tanks in the 1940s weren't that hard to drive.

However, you have a point, and perhaps captured equipment/units should get an experience penalty. Lack of training and all that...

Not sure if that would be possible to code.

cheers
Cross

[Imp]

I agree getting a vehicle going roughly is not that hard but controling it at a level that means you survive combat is a diffrent story.
Drive a car for the first time down an empty road is easily do able if you dont stall it. Now do it after 10 mins practice in a town centre & dont hit anything.
When I was 16 drove dozers & unlike a car takes practice to turn smoothly & put minimum strain on the vehicle.
4 Gears fwd & rvs pre selector box.
Push down & select 1st or 2nd for that track to drive fwd the other reverse
2 throttles & 2 brakes 1 for each track
Then theres the blade controls.

To start with you turn jerkily using mainly the brake & chewing up the ground then you become smooth & can do most turning by regulating the throttles for all but the tightest turns. You are now far more maneuverable & can turn at higher speeds, well for a dozer.

Actually its not unlike a car thinking about it when I first drove a car would be correcting throughout a bend rather than just steering smoothly through it.

The point is yes you might get it down the road or across that field but you are not being kind to the machinery & when you start getting fired at if driving it is not second nature are you going to see tommorow. You have just thought stop put in reverse but the skilled guy is long gone, he did not think at all he reacted primal brain & instinct the self preservation bit did it for him. Thats the level you need on the battlefield or that helps you avoid that crash by driving your car through a small gap at speed. You didnt know you could that but if its second nature sure you can.

[Lt. Ketch]

Originally Posted by Imp

You have just thought stop put in reverse but the skilled guy is long gone, he did not think at all he reacted primal brain & instinct the self preservation bit did it for him. Thats the level you need on the battlefield or that helps you avoid that crash by driving your car through a small gap at speed.

You've built a good argument for this and I have no intentions of knocking it down. I would simply like to throw a small rock against it.

There were tankers (and other drivers) of all abilities during the war from the veterns with dozens of kills to the new recruit that was thrown into the tank because they were short a gunner or driver, or loader, etc. So there were many people who probably had to think about what they were doing at various times. However, if you want to simulate that I think that the way the game allows this already is appropriate: using "green" formations, large number of units to commander in a platoon, etc.

Now I realize that having one or two new guys in a crew of four or five is not the same as using foruegn equipment. I'm reminded of the movie "U-571" where the one submarine guy that speaks German had run around telling everybody what everything was.

RERomine - Good point, I hadn't really thought about that, and it makes perfect sense. I guess tank use by partisans and resistance groups would be more on an opportunity basis. I.e. "We're going to ambush this supply convey here and oh look, an immobilized Pz. Lets use it to start the party with a bang." Or something like that.

I really wish that you could switch out small arms weapons to simulate captured equipment/behind enemy lines, but I realize a few things. 1-This has a higher potentional of being gamey then realist, 2-this is not a simulation but a game, 3-the coding on this would have to be a nightmare, and if it wasn't I wouldn't expect Don or Andy to say so and 4-This has aready been discussed and they said it wasn't going to happen for the reasons given above. The best I get is the partisan units (another reason I'm drawn to them.)

[Imp]

There were tankers (and other drivers) of all abilities during the war

Agree entirely, the likes of the tank workers in Stallingrad jumping straight into them & driving straght to battle, did they fair well I think probably not & it was the disparity in training that made a big diffrence in the early years.
The game represents this with exp ratings & throws in enough variables that even the likes of the Germans at there height can get a duff crew.

Rays point is a very good one the weapons are probably more useful though it might be handy to use 1 for something specific if you had it.

Nothing to stop you setting up a captured tank formation with the tanks you might use. Give it a negative exp mod but possibly plus morale because they have got a tank. You could do the same for troops & make some with enemy weapons. No need to give a formation just upgrade to in a campaign. This would mean they could take a slight exp hit & so represent getting the hang of the new weapons, though in most cases will make no diffrence.

Really vague on but there was a SS unit that near enough ceased to exist who ended up fighting virtually exclusivly with Russian weapons.
They went forward to capture a rail station for the supply line. Took it easy enough as lightly guarded but if remember correctly there were Russians on the way already by rail, a near by military school & something else. Luckily for them the Russians attacked in 3 seperate waves I think once with a cease fire to clear the dead.
They repulsed the first attack easy enough but what armour they had was then stripped of weapons as out of HE (think 1 had rounds left) They needed to do this because MG ammo was low. They collected enemy weapons in the gaps between waves to as all ammo was running low.
The 3rd human wave very nearly wiped them out as think they only had ammo for one MG when it started. This was a very bloody battle thousands of Russians were killed & if I remember the only functioning German weapons at the end with rounds left were a couple of Lugers & possibly one rifle.

[pjbandit2003]

Now if I remember correctly (and I probably dont) I remember reading years ago about a British unit in North Africa that set up a squadron of Italian tanks that were abandoned by the retreating Italians and putting crews in them that had had their Crusaders shot out from under them. I can remember where it was but I think it was outside of El Aleimain and they used them for the duration of the NA campaign. I know this is not the same as partisans as these were trained tank crews but with unfamiliar vehicles.