History Question

[Imp]

Decided to see how West Germany would have faired against USSR from its reforming to present, its going to take a while.
We have reached 1959 & as HS30 Heavy APCs have been out a year decided to take them for a spin which makes me ask did the Germans develop the forerunner for modern IFVs?
For its day well armoured can stand up to the USSR 14.5mg
Very good FC & rangefinder tied to a 20mm cannon
Net result at 1,000yds its killing APCs & eating infantry this is not a battlefield taxi.
Each company can come with a pair mounting a RCL to & there is a scout derivative though they are proving that dangerous I am mainly doing recon in force.
Correct use from what I have managed to find is 2 Co of these & a 3rd Co in trucks later MII3s & the game nicely provides a platoon with them mixed in.
USSRs got big problems at the moment & this has to be the birth of the IFV unless anyone can suggest other contendors.

[runequester]

I guess it depends on definitions.

I usually look at whether it can kill tanks or not, which a 20mm obviously cannot.
But it does have good capabilities against light vehicles etc.

More like a "heavy APC" in my book.

[Marek_Tucan]

Heavy APC, I would say, similar to Swedish PBVwhatever (302?).

[Imp]

I am going to beg to differ, game class yes its a heavy APC but how it is capable of being used in my eyes makes it an IFV.
PBV302 came 10 years later & is horrible the cannon is very short range, previous model 301 I would rather be in virtualy any USSR APC because they are at least an equal match for it & are better vs troops.
I am thinking its got nearly 10 years till the BMP-1 comes on the scene in which it dominates. Just checked & its replaced by the Marder a few years after the BMP-1 arrives.
Why is it an IFV my tanks have hardly fired at any enemy APCs or troops because the HS30 has dealt with them, try that in a PBV302 or any other APC prior to the BMP-1 which I always thought was the birth of IFVs. Even my infantry are doing little apart from in confined terrain its more like fighting as modern USA without TI.

[Arralen]

Looks to me the HS-30 is thoroughly overrated in the OOB.

The infamous HS-30, the ****tiest vehicle ever to serve in any german army since Arminius, ...
My grand uncle could rant endlessly about these things, especially since he often compared them to the SPW 251 his plattoon had in WW2 or the US M3 halftracks they had in 1955.
Using them as hard targets is perhaps the best service they ever rendered to Germany.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...=1#post4287420

For the political background around the HS-30 scandal (yes, scandal !), look here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%...zer_Lang_HS.30
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/HS-30-Skandal
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-46209459.html

Basically, it was:
- undermotorized
- cramped
- prone to mechanical failure : if everything, like M3 and Marder, have surv. 3, and M113 has 4, then this thing deserves a 2 - sadly there's not flag for "mechanics break apart when stressed by hit or normal (for a tank) use", ...
- "crew" was 3, "carry" was 4-5, not 10 ! http://i3.tinypic.com/volegy.jpg

Oh, and I suspect it's either "HS-30" or "HS 30", but something like "HS.30" would be absolutly unusual in german.

[Mobhack]

AKA Spz 12-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%...zer_Lang_HS.30

Cutting dismounts to 6 with 2 crew (assume commander dismounts) will be easy, as that infantry class is only used by these an then the marders - and the marders do not overlap them in service.

Seems it really was junk - And it may have been worse than the FV432 even. That's some going !.

Pity, as back in the day (1970 or thereabouts) I had tons of these in 1/87 ROCO plastics in my wargaming army, since they looked rather cool, and the 20mm was a nice can-opener to have.

Andy

[DRG]

I do not have the link available but when I changed the designation to "HS.30" it was based on information from a german language website. Even the link you supply gives it as HS.30

Don

[Arralen]

Originally Posted by DRG

I do not have the link available but when I changed the designation to "HS.30" it was based on information from a german language website. Even the link you supply gives it as HS.30

.. it's the english version of wikipedia.
In fact, it's the only page I was able to find that uses the HS.30 nomenclature.

Check the contemporary spiegel.de source (that article is from '67) and you'll find "HS 30" ... and in '67, their research and investigation was lots better than today, so I'm pretty sure that they didn't botch the vehicles name right on the front page of their weekly issue

That dot might come from (spanish?) documents from Hispano-Suiza (HS) - all their guns seem to have that dot in their name, and some of their cars, too.