Question: Sighting Issue

[Warmonger]

See attached.

Tank in hex 79,48 and 75mm gun in 84,48 cannot see each other when the turn was saved. Which makes sense since both units are at height 0 but there are three intervening hexes at height 2. However if you run the current turn, the 75 will fire at the tank.

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Warmonger

See attached.

Tank in hex 79,48 and 75mm gun in 84,48 cannot see each other when the turn was saved. Which makes sense since both units are at height 0 but there are three intervening hexes at height 2. However if you run the current turn, the 75 will fire at the tank.

Holy smoke Warmonger, you've got a huge fight on your hands.

Anyway yeah, I see what you mean. I've had a few quibbles with LOS issues myself, but I try not to let it bug me . Perfection is not of this world (or maybe even the next, if there is one), so instead of begrudging minor annoyances I'd rather have fun and immerse myself in a truly remarkable game system. Be thankful for what we've got!

[DRG]

First to the assumption that "makes sense".

Height 2 does not block LOS between two hexes that are height zero. It takes >Height 3 to do that.

Second, you have a size three vehicle moving at 15 MPH being seen and fired at by a size 1 gun that is stationary.

It's quite possible the the gun could have seen the tank on the previous turn but the game AI routine held fire then , There IS code in the game to prevent the AI from firing as soon as it sees something if it doesn't like the odds,but the random numbers the AI uses to make decisions it makes less predictable this time tipped the decision in favor of firing but we will never know because you didn't provide that save.

There is also the smoke in hex 81,47 that has begun to dissipate since the previous turn which *may* have some small influence on sighting along that road but we don't know, because we don't have that save and running the previous turns fighting does not provide any answers

The bottom line is there is no "bug" here.


Don

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Warmonger

See attached.

Tank in hex 79,48 and 75mm gun in 84,48 cannot see each other when the turn was saved. Which makes sense since both units are at height 0 but there are three intervening hexes at height 2. However if you run the current turn, the 75 will fire at the tank.

I loaded that and saved the game and reloaded - visibility is exactly the same, as it should be. tank could not see gun or vice versa as it was before the save.

On running the turn, naturally any smoke that is in hexes or influencing nearby hexes may degrade or increase, depending on various factors. In this case, smoke effect in the intervening hexes lessens, and the 2 can see each other.

This is not a "bug" - just normal smoke activity which is assessed in each player's administrative phase at end of turn.

- Just because you cannot see X in your turn due to smoke does not mean that X will not be able to see you in his turn, since the smoke level may change in the end of turn administration phase. (Same, you can see X - but maybe not next turn if say a fire hex spreads more smoke)

- Small amounts of smoke are not shown as a smoke animation. Only major smoke (about 40% ISTR) gets a "smoke" icon. Wisps do not - and wisps are usually quicker to clear. Hexes with small amounts of wispy smoke are really only detectable by observing the LOS view. That has always been the case in SP games.

So no bug - the wisp of smoke simply blew away when you pressed end turn. SP has always been that way. You cannot rely on "fig-leaves" of smoke to reliably hide troops (unlike, say an intervening building or hill).

[Warmonger]

Thanks Don and Andy. Lots of good information there and explains other odd events that happen periodically. But I still find it strange that units can spend a whole turn firing at each other through a hex with visible smoke but have their LOS blocked by non-visible smoke. Presumably visible smoke is denser.

Also, just what does a height level represent, 1 meter, 5, 10?

In this case there was an infantry unit moving down that road before there was any fire or smoke present and it couldn't see the 75 until it got up on level 2. Does it mean that blocking heights are different for different types of units?

[Mobhack]

A height unit is 10 for a small hill, up to 30 for a large hill - that's all that SSI provided, 3 hill sizes. We now have 15 levels of hill available.

A height level has no particular measurement in any particular unit.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Warmonger

......just what does a height level represent, 1 meter, 5, 10?

Here's the best answer I've come up with since we added some added height functions to the extended map editor.

Next release the extended map editor will read exactly what the hex height is, any obstacle in the hex ( trees, grass, buildings etc etc ) and the sum of those two values and you will be able to fine tune both the height of the ground as you can now but also the obstacle.

Now........ this is important....... we are dealing with some game abstraction here.......some people don't like abstractions but it's a fact of life with SP and it's not going to change. Its a game, not reality.

The game does not block LOS BEHIND a "bump" in the map until it gets to be 4 high. It will allow you to see over and behind any "bump" 3 and under. For simplicity I have pegged each "height" at 18 inches although that could be further refined

If a unit is standing at zero height directly behind a 4 high "bump" that is three hexes long , LOS will be blocked for 2 hexes behind the bump. If that 4 high bump is 4 hexes long, LOS will be blocked completely right across the map. If the bump is 5 high even one hex will totally block LOS.

I'm sure if I spent the time I could do the math that would give a refined estimate but I think for sake of argument 18 inches is close enough which would put each hill level 15 feet high.

The closest, easiest conversion to metric would be each height represents .5 meters and each hill level represents 5 metres of height


Don

[Mobhack]

The best way to look at it is as if it was a traditional 6 foot by 4 foot wargames table. If you were short of ready made wooden hill contours, we used to use beer mats sourced from the bar, sometimes.

One hill level is one beer mat, and 2 beer mats stacked is a 2 level hill.

Like the original SP1-3, we rarely used more than 3 levels of beer mat, or "proper" wooden cut-out hills made from plywood etc.

Our mods allow you to have 15 contour levels now, but there is really no way you could represent "real" terrain - and there is no need for it, given that it is a wargame (ie based on abstractions) and not a "simulation".

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by DRG

The game does not block LOS BEHIND a "bump" in the map until it gets to be 4 high. It will allow you to see over and behind any "bump" 3 and under. For simplicity I have pegged each "height" at 18 inches although that could be further refined

If a unit is standing at zero height directly behind a 4 high "bump" that is three hexes long , LOS will be blocked for 2 hexes behind the bump. If that 4 high bump is 4 hexes long, LOS will be blocked completely right across the map. If the bump is 5 high even one hex will totally block LOS.

I'm sure if I spent the time I could do the math that would give a refined estimate but I think for sake of argument 18 inches is close enough which would put each hill level 15 feet high.

The closest, easiest conversion to metric would be each height represents .5 meters and each hill level represents 5 metres of height


Don

Ah, so THAT'S it! I'd been wondering how odd it was that units could often "see through" higher elevations and thought it was some kind of glitch. Not anymore.

Thanks much for your detailed explanation Don. Maybe this oughtta be stickied or something. It sure clears up a lot of confusion over LOS.

[Warmonger]

Don,

Thanks for your explanation, but I'm a bit confused. When I mouse over a hex the top text specifies the height, which you state is approx. .5 meter. OK, but what is a hill level? I've never seen it indicated on the map.

So based on your height estimate, a one story building would be about a 10 height obstruction. Fully grown trees would be about a 35 height obstruction. These would be added to the hex height to determine the full obstruction height. Is this right?