Attack Helos

DRG · #1 January 29th, 2013, 07:02 PM

I need to know if anyone has read anything at all on how pilots of Attack helicopters like Mi-24 and Apaches are trained to fire their auto cannon at ground targets

For example, are they trained to fire 1 second burst ? 2 second ? Half second ?

I'm looking for this very specific information only. I do not need quotes from Wiki or anywhere else on the ROF of the guns and speculation on what would probably be a typical burst of fire. I can, and already have, done that.

What I'm looking for is any information that points to pilots being trained to fire their auto cannons in a specific way as described

Thanks

Don

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #2 January 30th, 2013, 01:40 AM

This might be half of what you want. From the UK MAIL newspaper online service that interviewed the pilots of the UK's first AH-1 attack mission in Rahim Kalay, Afghanistan in the summer of 2007. About half way down they speak of shooting 20 round bursts at their targets though twice they shot short bursts of warning shots, and at one mention a 10 round burst. But again when engaging the enemy it was all 20 round bursts. Otherwise I'll check Global Security to see if they have any USA FMs on the topic.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...g-Machine.html

Regards,
Pat

luigim · #3 January 30th, 2013, 01:43 AM

In VBS2, the training simulation, Apaches have 10, 20 or 30 rounds fire modes.

DRG · #4 January 30th, 2013, 10:36 AM

A 20 round burst from an Apache is a tiny bit less than 2 seconds of firing.

10, 20 or 30 rounds would be very close to 1, 2 and 3 seconds each.

This is very useful info. If anyone finds anything of a similar nature about the Mi-24p with the 30mm cannon that would be very helpful as well.

The problem is the Russian gun allows a Low and High ROF but the information I have so far indicates the low cycle rate is generally employed for ground targets and the high ROF for air-air but any further info in that regard anyone can dig up would be helpful because there is some variation on what the low ROF actually is. If pilots tend to fire 2 second bursts this affects ammo loads in the game and right now, for a lot of units the "that seems about right" method was applied and in some cases that decision was made with very sketchy info. Compared to even 5 years ago there is a lot more info on the 'net and we've been working on MBT for 13 years now ( hard to belive even for me......)

That said the ammo load for the existing Apaches is perfect as is for a 20 round / 2 second burst

Don

Mustang · #5 January 30th, 2013, 12:59 PM

From video games like Team Apache/Janes/Microprose it seems like the Apache has multiple burst selections. The default is 10 rounds per burst but goes up to 100. Ten seems to work fine. I'm no pilot though. The current loadouts seem fine.

However considering most infantry need 250,000 bullets per kill the land grunts would realistically be leaving the battlefield several times and rearming during a typical scenario it's also plausible to buff up helos the same.

Mustang · #6 January 30th, 2013, 01:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2O408jhyk

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthrea...-pilots-inside

You can find some Mi-28 live fire videos on YouTube. I'd guess they fire 10-30 rounds per burst although the pilot doesn't seem to be consistent.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #7 January 31st, 2013, 05:02 AM

Alright by way of one of the cannons carried on the Mi-24, specifically the Mi-24P with the turreted twin barreled GSh-30K it has an ROF of 300 Rounds Short/2400-2600 (Many say 2450.) Rounds Long selector. It carries on board 750 rounds of 30mm DU ammo. This I believe you have as well already or something close to it. I've searched the NET the info you wanted based on a specific weapon type, pilot/gunner gunnery training etc. with no luck. So I've emailed Dr. Stephen Peterson my LSK/LV Mig-29 Pilot and current Lt.Col Luftwaffe Reserve EUROFIGHTER Pilot. He's the one that let me post his Mig-29/23 DDR pics in the Jet/Planes Thread. Anyway sorry it's late and I'm tired...hoping he can get in touch with some of the HIND pilots he knew to hopefully get you the answers you need. On their Wehrmacht.com website East German LSK/LV he posted some of the best HIND in air shots I've seen. GOOD NIGHT!!!

Regards,
Pat

daferg · #8 January 31st, 2013, 08:32 AM

Being a disabled vet I have some spare time on my hands. I first tried the Army aerial gunnery manuals and came up with nothing. I then looked into gunnery tables and qualifications and came up with nothing. I then went wider and tried every different FM I could find and came up with nothing. I do know some Apache pilots and gunners but I can't stand talking to them so that was out of the question. I finally went to YouTube. A search of "AH-64 gun camera footage" gets a lot of results. On a lot of these videos the HUD is visible. If the Apache is engaging targets with the 30mm, the HUD will display weapon status and rounds remaining. I watch so many gun camera videos that I now see everything in FLIR mode. HaHa. 9 times out of 10 the rounds fired was right around 20 rounds at dismounted infantry. The sound is distorted but the average burst seemed to be right around 2 seconds. The engagements were just a series of 2 round burst on the target until it was no longer a target. Any target that was more solid than a human was normally engaged with FFARs or Hellfires so I could not get a round count for the 30mm on those. I'll paste the link to the best YouTube video I could find. I'm sure everyone is smart enough to see the round count. I don't know if this helps but I thought I'd try to help. I did not look at Russian gun camera footage to tell you about them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvrJzkzaG7E
Below is the name of the video on YouTube if the link does not work:

Afghanistan - Absolutely typical apache attack with Hellfire and 30mm Gun

DRG · #9 January 31st, 2013, 12:04 PM

Here's an excellent example of the type of info I'm looking for and I found this by accident. The only thing better would be a pilots report

It refers to the 30mm AC on the Ka-50

Quote:

.....two ammunition boxes in centre-fuselage. Front box contains 240 AP rounds, rear box 230 HE rounds. Selectable rapid (550 to 600 rds/min) or slow (350 rds/min) fire, with bursts of 10 or 20 rounds.

If 10 round bursts are assumed that gives the helicopter 23 he and 24 AP/Sabot "bursts" of fire...... if 20 round are assumed --and given these are similar ROF's to the Apache AC and that may be more typical use than 10 rounds we are looking at 11 HE and 12 AP/Sabot or just split the difference and go with 12/12.

20 rounds fired or two second bursts seems to be a recurring theme with the 30mm AC's

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #10 January 31st, 2013, 01:11 PM

Haven't checked my email to see if I got a response, however maybe the weapons table from the below ref will be of some help after all. Will try to find what the typical ammo load is for these three main guns shown for the newer Mi-24 models shown.
Half split or 2 to 1 ammo split on HE vs AP might yield some rough ref numbers. See what I can do without cutting into the deadline, that work starts tonight after work or tomorrow before work. It's almost like being Santa for some of these OOBs.
http://www.enemyforces.net/helicopters/mi24.htm

Regards,
Pat