IDF OOB project.

gingertanker · #1 August 9th, 2013, 08:09 AM

Hello. After the conversation in the TI thread I opened, I realized it would be easier to open a thread. Here I will go over the OOB starting from unit 002 and onward and find things I think should be changed.

As requested I will post each group of findings in a separate massage in this thread.

I will post links to my sources, but some(many) will be in Hebrew. Some sources are my own knowledge and asking people I know, as I know many IDF officers present and past...

gingertanker · #2 August 9th, 2013, 08:12 AM

Hotchkiss tanks:
*Israel OOB 04 Unit 003 Hotchkiss H35: This should be the H39(currently unit 435 in the OOB).

*Israel OOB 04 Unit 010 Hotchkiss H35i: I personally have never heard of a 6pdr hothkiss in Israeli service. The shoehorning of such a weapon into the H39 seems unlikely to me.
Further more, the 37mm guns that the tanks came with were actually removed and put on armored cars- as the tanks were mechanically unreliable. The constant engine and transmission issues had this tanks listed
as "Unfit" from December 1948 onward. This means that in reality, H39 tanks were available only from 5/1948 when they
arrived to 1/1949 when they were withdrawn from operational service altogether, and their guns were removed and put in the turrets of armored cars.

Source: http://www.yadlashiryon.com/show_ite...401&itemType=0 (the Israeli Armored Corps Museum)

Speaking of small french tanks, the Renault R-35, a cousin to the Hotchkiss, is missing altogether...At least one of 3 tanks captured from the Syrians was repaired in 1948 and used along side the Hotchkiss and Cromwell tanks. If added I think it should be available until 1949, but this
a guess based on the Sherman tanks arriving in greater quantities around that time. The R-35 can be added instead of unit 011, which as mentioned before should be removed.

Source: http://www.himush.co.il/?section=203 (IDF Ordnance Corps Veterans)

DRG · #3 August 9th, 2013, 08:45 AM

FYI I know it's the Isreali OOB were are dealing with so I don't need "Israel OOB 04 Unit 003"...... Just "Unit 003" and if the tank is already in as a light tank it does not need to be in again as another class unless it's needed to bridge a gap in the unit list which in this case it does not so in this case unit 3 would just be removed or renationalized for now and removed later.

ALSO......

Quote:

The R-35 can be added instead of unit 011, which as mentioned before should be removed.

Show me where you said remove unit 11. You had mentioned Unit 010 but never actually said "remove it" though it was implied

So YES... changing Unit 010 Hotchkiss H35i for a Renault R-35 would work but you need to check and correct the errors in your reports before posting otherwise we will have "problems" as we progress though this

Don

gingertanker · #4 August 9th, 2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

FYI I know it's the Isreali OOB were are dealing with so I don't need "Israel OOB 04 Unit 003"...... Just "Unit 003"

Sure no problem. I did that because I was concerned if somone copied it to a list of things he wants to do, it would be easier to have the full info in case its a mixed nation to-do list...

Quote:

if the tank is already in as a light tank it does not need to be in again as another class unless it's needed to bridge a gap in the unit list which in this case it does not so in this case unit 3 would just be removed or renationalized for now and removed later.

The reason I asked for that is that Israel has no formation which allows choosing the H39 as a single tank. The formation "Tank" works only with MBT units...Considering the small amounts of both H39(less than 10 available at any time) and R-35(No more than 3 available at anytime) I think it would make sense to allow them to be picked in a formation that includes only one tank.

Quote:

Show me where you said remove unit 11. You had mentioned Unit 010 but never actually said "remove it" though it was implied

So YES... changing Unit 010 Hotchkiss H35i for a Renault R-35 would work but you need to check and correct the errors in your reports before posting otherwise we will have "problems" as we progress though this

Good point I will try to do better checking of my posts. I did actually go over it but i somehow missed that I put in 11 instead of 10.

Other than that, is this a worthwhile endeavor or am I wasting your time?

gingertanker · #5 August 9th, 2013, 03:12 PM

For now, moving along...Even though I said I will run by unit numbers, I really have to jump forward to keep all units of a certain model in a single post( because obsolete tanks for instance are very far down the oob)

Sherman Tanks(gun tanks only for now)

Unit 006 Sherman M1: Should not be available later than 1970. I know for a fact no training for these tanks was made past this year, hence I am convinced they were retired from regular units.

Unit 008 Sherman M50 As with the M1, I know for a fact no training was done for these from 1970 at least. So should not be available from 1970.

Unit 009 Sherman M51: As for the other 2 Sherman variants, should not be available past 1970.

Unit 625 M1 Sherman: All the Sherman units in 1973 were using the M50 and M51. On the other hand I know that some reserve units like the 27th brigade had them in 1956. I suggest a new availability range of 1/1956-1/1972. This is conservative as I cant seem to find anything to prove what I really think(1954 to 1969)

Unit 626 Sherman M50 : Following the remark on unit 008, this should be avilable from 1/1970 at the least. Probably earlier(1/1969?)

Unit 627 Sherman M51 Following on from the remark on unit 009, this should be avilable from 1/1970.

For both units 626 and 627 I would put an end date of 12/1982. I cant source this but the tanks were not used in Lebanon AFAIK by the IDF. They were sold to Chile and some given to SLA as we all know.

DRG · #6 August 9th, 2013, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gingertanker

Other than that, is this a worthwhile endeavor or am I wasting your time?

It's all going on "the list" but I won't really be starting work on it until at least October - November

Don

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #7 August 10th, 2013, 03:59 AM

Gingertanker I hope this will help you get off to a good start.
Ref.1 one of the Sh'ot-Kai is worth the time just for the pictorial history shown to include other tanks you might wish to research from this site.

Sh'ot-Kal (British Centurion Mk3 and Mk5.)... These tanks would not have the IR equipment on them at least not from Britain. They would not be put on the British CENTURION until the Mk9 became available. However in ref 1 Israel had full access to the CHIEFTAIN technology so if they didn't have an IR FCS prior to that, they definitely had access to one of the most advanced FCS at that time and I can see where some Sh'ot-Kai units would've been equipped with it. They were in active service until the late 80's then relegated to reserve units until retired in 2002. Ref. 1 is a full on IDF tanker site which I've used in the past most recently in the MERKAVA 4/4b troop carrying issue as the site actually had pictures of combat troops in that situation inside and outside of the tanks which I posted.
http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/20...tion-2009.html
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...sp?armor_id=13
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...l/shot-kal.htm

MAGACH 1-5 (USA M48A1, M482C and M48A5.) then MAGACH 6-7C (USA M60, M60A1 and M60A3.)... Here is where I can see issues beyond dates...six different tanks for one named one. I already knew the M48 made up I thought MAG 1/2 until the M60 series became available for MAG 3 on, well my thinking was wrong there. The MAGACH 6 (M60 version only.) was available for combat service prior to the YOM KIPPUR War and did fight in it. I have an almost even split not on whether the MAGACH 7 is still in service, because it is, but whether it is still currently a front line tank or in active reserve status. The MAGACH 7C was in front line service at least through the end of 2003. One tank not mentioned from the TI thread is the SABRA which is a much improved offshoot version of the MAGACH, that tank complicants this issue further. The variant section of ref 1 will be very important to assess capabilities as they might now exist in the game. I would expect the MAGACH 7C to see service/or be available to this games end due to the currently imposed reduced production of the MERKAVA 4b.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe..._pictures.html
http://www.patton-mania.com/IDF_Patt...f_pattons.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/magach_7.htm
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3186.html

The above IDF armor site might be useful here as well for date research and these tanks in general especailly in the modifications the IDF made to them.

It's late and I have to work later today. I will try to address/provide info on the SABRA (Still serving in frontline units.) and MERKAVA 1-4 later tonight or on Sunday. There is good info in the reading material that might help in narrowing the date issues brought up and I tried my best to answer the general questions as well that were raised in the TI thread later posts.

Regards,
Pat

gingertanker · #8 August 10th, 2013, 04:29 PM

Thank you Pat.

Some shots certainly had IR before the TI came in I need to look into that. But the dates are after the Yom Kippur war, mid 70s to mid 80s when the TI started coming in. The Shot-Kal Daled/Brak Or was in service with the 188th until 1992. The last reserve unit was shut down in 2002 as you mentioned.

As for Magach variants, fortunatly I did the wikipedia Hebrew page on this a few years ago with a shot list of the models, along with some other tankers. So I know the wiki page is good...So when I get to Magach tanks I should not have too much trouble. Also- Magach 7 is app(I just checked this a few days ago) no longer in service. This must have happened around 2010 or so...It was out of front line service 2003 when they shut down the 500th armored. Sabara was never in IDF service. The Magach 6B Gal was preferred for continued service and is still in reserve units.

BTW the rumors right now are that Merk 4 production will be at full steam- the cost being a reduction of the total number of tanks(meaning retirement of older tanks).

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #9 August 11th, 2013, 02:51 AM

Gingertanker,
Wish I had come across this website and IDF one from yesterday morning sooner when dealing with the Turkish M60T. I needed a "reboot" on the SABRA. The confusion from what I'm reading now stems from the IMI proposal to the IDF to upgrade the MAGACH 7C with a 120mm MG with some other improvements and designate it the SABRA Mk I. A further upgrade would be made to the MAGACH 7C but, as you noted it would be the MAGACH 6B GAL BATASH (aka Magach 7D or 8) as noted by both refs mentioned as well also. So SABRA is the upgraded export version of the MAGACH. The Turkish M60T in reality is a SABRA Mk I-III as it's development between Israel and Turkey progressed.
http://www.patton-mania.com/IDF_Patt...f_pattons.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sabra/

I'll just post from one site on MERKAVA as it's comprehensive with dates and variants...

MERKAVA 1 Mk I...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe...entificat.html

MERKAVA 2 Mk II...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe..._identifi.html

MERKAVA 3 Mk III...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe...tion_iden.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/

MERKAVA 4 Mk IV...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe..._identifi.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/

Thanks again about the SABRA again I remember it being a headache at the time the M60T was being submitted.

Regards,
Pat

gingertanker · #10 August 11th, 2013, 09:30 AM

A second go at Shot/Centurion tanks!

Digging in deeper than the TI thread...

Units 011, 012, 014:

*Only 014 is named Sh'ot Meteor, while in reality all of them were Sh'ot Meteor(named so because of the Meteor engine). Not sure how the names should be changed...

*014 Should be available until 1971, I know for a fact training for it was still conducted for regular troops in 1970.

*An obsolete tank unit with the stats from 014 Sh'ot Meteor should be available until 12/73. Sh'ot tanks with petrol engine took part in the 1973 war.

Units 013,015,016-019, 628, 629

*Start date for 013 should be 5/1970 when the first Sh'ot Kal Alef were put into service. As 700 tanks were converted, it is also obvious that an obsolete tank unit corresponding to this should be available starting 1970 and probably available to the late 80s(sorry I cant give a precise end date).

Sh'ot Kal Bet was basically similar to Sh'ot Kal Alef and came about in 1975. The difference between the two is not really relevant to the game(change of turret controls). I suggest not to make separate units for Bet and Alef.

*Unit 017: I had trouble with this. I have conflicting sources on the Sh'ot Brak-Or. This is the best I could come up with, a book about the IDF Ordnance Corps says the Brak-Or conversion was only done in 1984. In 1979 Shot Kal Gimel came into service, with passive IR, better FCS and some with Blazer(but indeed many Alef and Bet were given blazer as well).

So I suggest 017 be renamed Shot Kal Gimel. Given 30 vision for passive IR(had the same M32 sight as the Merk 1). Should also receive LRF and probably a boost to the FCS stat(to 20 maybe?). Stabilizer should be upped to 4, to reflect the new turret control identical to the Magach 6B. Blazer is optional.

This also needs an obsolete tank unit, starting in 1979 and ending 2002. I would suggest using slot 628.

*Unit 018 Sh'ot Brak-Or: . Should have TI, LRF, Stabilizer 4 as in previous model, and FCS similar to Magach 6B Gal(32).End date should be 12/1992.

*Unit 019: Can be removed as its start date is so close to the end of centurions in regular IDF units . Another option is to copy the revised unit 018 here and re split the dates to 1990, as to allow use of the improved Is90 gun....

*Unit 629 Should be available from 1/1993, to reflect the tanks being moved from regular to reserve units.

I am so tired now

Why did the IDF do so many conversions