Proposed counter intelligence fix - Page 2

DirectorTsaarx · #11 March 5th, 2001, 10:55 PM

I also used to think that you needed CI level 2 or 3 to counter Intel level 2 or 3; but then I checked the Q&A on the MM website and discovered that ANY CI project can indeed block any Intel project, assuming the CI project has accumulated enough points. Another interesting point is that the only Intel project that costs more than the CI level 1 (100,000 points) is "Steal Technology" (or whatever it's called) at 150,000 points.

So it seems the only real benefit to the higher-level CI projects is blocking the "Steal Technology" project (which is fairly minor in comparison to others, since you don't actually lose something, the enemy merely gains the benefit of your research). The other good thing is that the higher-level projects are less likely to complete "unsuccessfully" just because it takes longer to spend the full number of points, which makes it more likely that an enemy will finish an intel project against you before you spend the full number of points. (hope that Last sentence made sense...)

As for multiple intel projects completing at the same time, I think two things are happening:
1) the enemy's intel projects are synching up because they cost about the same amount
2) there's a "domino effect" occurring. The AI is, of course, running counter-intel ops of its own. As those counter-intel ops are completed, unspent points (if any) are used to make the following intel ops complete, and so everything completes at the same time...

[This message has been edited by DirectorTsaarx (edited 05 March 2001).]

Stone Mill · #12 March 6th, 2001, 06:01 PM

The intel system is definitely broken, at least in PBEM simaltaneous games.

After reading about how it is supposed to work, I have been confounded as to what the heck is going on in my current game. I have been running intel projects against my opponent for about 12 turns:

My base intel: 45-50K
His Defense Intel: 8-12K

Not ONE operation has succeeded. I asked him how he defended my attacks, and he has been running nothing but defense (counter Intel II with repeat). He had intel tech for only an estimate of 30 turns. Let's say that according to these numbers, he should have 30 X 10K = 300,000 possible counter intel project points.

BAFFLING PART: He currently has three level II projects near completion! That's about 700,000 defense points! Not to mention the (estimated) 45,000 X 12 turns = 540,000 offensive intel operation points that should have reduced his defense. It should not even be close.

The only other thing I can think of is that he is in a partnership with another player with about a 50K intel base. I doubt this is causing this effect.

IF intel worked the way it was supposed to, it would be a HUGE factor in games against other humans. But according to our experiences, there seems to be a problem or something we could have missed... It's just lame to discover that Intel is useless after you have been playing for 80 turns.

DirectorTsaarx · #13 March 6th, 2001, 10:26 PM

By "near completion", I assume you mean ending next turn. That does NOT mean he has spent the full cost of a Counter Intel II project. It ONLY means he has spent enough to counter an Intel operation. Which could be as little as 4000 points. (Assuming that the setting in "Settings.txt" that gives Counter-Intel a 20% bonus against Intel is working). 3 * 4000 is only 12,000; his entire output at this time.

Now, Partners share Intel points. So he could be getting 20% of 50k, which is 10k; giving him 22,000 points per turn to spend on Counter-Intel. Still not quite enough (even with a bonus for CI vs. I) to negate all your attacks. Especially if you complete more than 3 ops per turn, and all are being countered. It is possible (though yet to be verified by anyone) that multiples of the same project are treated as one project; i.e., three Crew Insurrections against the same empire MIGHT be blocked by a single CI op. I forget where we discussed that idea, but you might want to pursue it; if that IS the case, MM needs to fix it.

Finally, IIRC, there's a chance for Intel projects to fail on their own. Particularly if you target a specific item (ship/planet) rather than "any ship/planet" in the target empire.

BTW - it took me a while to get Intel to work on one of the AI opponents; so it works in some cases. Just not certain how many cases or how well...

Stone Mill · #14 March 8th, 2001, 06:24 PM

No, that's not what I mean... I am familiar with the bar counter for projects, and when I relayed what my friend described, I meant he had multiple projects completed or near completed(green bar filled up).

Upon further investigation (we stopped playing the game and took screen caps of his intel for the Last 7 turns) we are definitely experiencing something quite erratic. We have sent the game files and screen caps to Malfador, it certainly looks like a bug.

With repeat projects on, and devide points evenly, he is literally completing a full Level 2 CI proj a turn. Every other turn, his points are completely depleted!?! then return, with even more CI points.
More to come on this...

raynor · #15 March 8th, 2001, 08:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
You are mistaken about spies in MOO. Don't assume that you are always informed when your technology is stolen in MOO. You are not. You'd better keep a 1-1 or better ratio of your defensive spies to the offensive spies from your enemies or you are losing information whether you hear about it or not.

Thanks for the heads-up, Baron Munchausen! Maybe that's why I never beat this game on Impossible, ya think?