OT: Election 2004

[Lord Chane]

Originally posted by Randallw:
The Treaty of Versailles could be said to have created more problems than it finished. It completely blamed the Germans for the war even though really Austria could be said to have started it. It punished the Germans severely, such as taking away a lot of its territory, it forced them to pay massive reperations and the germans did not have a say in what would happen. Basically the allies got so carried away with their victory they decided to make the Germans pay. I apologise that I can't find my textbook with the actual cartoon, but there exists an editorial cartoon drawn shortly after the Treaty where the writers of the treaty, such as the prime ministers of the UK and France and the president of the US are walking out of the hall and there is a small child labelled the "class of 39" weeping to one side of the door. The Prime minister of the UK says "can I hear crying?". Even in 1919 people knew the treaty was going to cause trouble and this is 10 years before anyone outside of Germany had heard of Hitler. If anything Hitler was allowed to get away with his demands because allied governments knew they had been too harsh and the German people deserved things back. [/QB]

You're absolutely correct in your analysis. I wasn't supporting the treaty or saying that it was a good thing. My point was that good or bad the treaty was a legal document and when Hitler decided to break it the allies did have the force of law on their side had they elected to enforce it. Yes, the treaty was a mistake and fortunately we learned from it and we didn't repeat the mistake at the end of WW-II.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Renegade 13. by the def'n of evil in this thread.

USA is evil . The war of ideology / economy cost millions of peoples lives, proped up dictators, overthrown popular movements.

Look at the actions over the Last 50 years.

P.S. Hitler was the lesser of the two evils in the 30's and 40's. He just moved first and the third french-german war was under way under 100 years.

Yeah I guess you're right Tesco. The word 'evil' is such an ambiguous term, it means different things to different people. And that's one thing that Bush has done that's really made me mad. He's used the word "evil" to describe anyone who opposes him and his agenda. And yes, some of them undoubtedly are evil. But using the term to blanket those who don't agree with you is just wrong.

[Roanon]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
USA is evil.

A country or nation cannot be "evil". Whatever this is. Peoples may be, leaders may be, but I don't think you can say USA itself is evil or that every US citizen is evil.

I support you if you say that Bush is a money-greedy warmonger, but this is something totally different. And just my personal opinion, not that I want to start a discussion here.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

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However what is done is done. Time to move forward and think about the future.

No! I get really angry when i hear this. The truth about this war needs to come out, and the guilty need to be punished. Bush and Blair are appealing to the short attention-spans of their populations to try to avoid the repercussions of their illegal war- "Oh, the Iraq war, that was so Last year. Let's talk about something else now." How would it be if Nixon had dragged out the Watergate investigations for a year and then said "are you still talking about Watergate? What is done is done. Aren't you bored of that yet? Here, look at this bright shiny thing over here! Look! Look!"

I won't "move forward" until I see B&B in front of some kind of trial or hearing to establish the truth, and if they are found to be guilty of
deceiving their people and causing thousands of deaths under false pretexts and for dubious motivations, they should be kicked out of office at the very least, or even locked up.

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Amen. I want to see GWB at the least sent to the Hague where he can have Milosovic as a cellmate. And maybe the bulk of his administration should go with him.

[Lord Chane]

Originally posted by Roanon:
A country or nation cannot be "evil". Whatever this is. Peoples may be, leaders may be, but I don't think you can say USA itself is evil or that every US citizen is evil.

As defined by the dictionary evil, in this context, means "Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant." So I suppose a nation can be evil if it can be said to be morally bad or wrong. The catch, at least from my perspective, is who decides on the morals we use to decide if a person or nation is morally bad? From the point of view of the US Saddam clearly met the definition of evil. Its equally clear though that some Arab nations and sizeable number of Moslem devotees view the US as the evil entity in this equation. I think the best we can say is that a person or country is evil from a given moral perspective.

[tesco samoa]

Roanan I was commenting on the word evil in this thread...
I was saying

Renegade 13. by the def'n of evil in this thread.

USA is evil . The war of ideology / economy cost millions of peoples lives, proped up dictators, overthrown popular movements.

[Roanon]

Ah, I had misunderstood this one, Tesco.
By Bush's own definition of evil, of course he is. Now I wonder if he will attack himself, go to Guantanamo, and let himself treat in violation of any international laws concerning the treatment of POWs.