Death & Blood a little borked?

[Huzurdaddi]

Well, just because their are not very many Posts about them, suddenly they are not 'effective'?

I think the arrow points in the other direction. If there are a number of Posts about something being "effective" then there is a chance that something is out of wack.

I'm sure that you have played a number of on line games. Usually it starts with one or two Posts about something being "darn good." Then perhaps a discussion about it being "overpowered." This claim is almost always followed by counter claims supported by the assertion "with more experience you will understand." Sometimes the clamour dies down for a while. Then after some more time there are further Posts about how it is "imbalanced" this time more vocal. This is followed by even more people ( perhaps the very people that are exploiting the imbalance ) posting that "you simply do not see the counters" and perhaps illustrating a few ( difficult to implement or fraught with their own perils ) counters. The clamour dies down then. Then finally a good percentage of the gaming population starts doing this "abusive" strategy, and people come to the Boards en mass to say it is broken at which point the developers start to take a look.

It's a pretty classic cycle. Now to be sure there are plenty of people who yell "nerf" without proper justification. However I would say that, in most games ( perhaps dominions2 is the execption, time will tell ), the claims are justified more often than not.

Wrathful Skies is extremely effective.

Perhaps too effecive given it low research and casting requirements given that it is a battlefield effect spell that Lasts the duration of the battle. But I don't know if I want to get into specifics.

Orb Lighting, with the appropriate setup, is extremely effective.

Again some may argue that it is too effective.

but not the entire school

Note this is exactly what I said about air. I see only a few problematic spells in air.

Death is the same way.

Certianly only SOME spells seem to be out of wack. However the number of spells which seem out of wack seems great to me. I could be mistaken.

Only because the Summons are not price-friendly but the Item Forging and Combat Spells are extremely powerful.

Are astral's combat spells really that superior to death? Is Slay Living/Enslave Mind for example superior to life drain? I don't know. In some cases yes, in some cases no. I would call it a push to be honest. The astral magic seems superior against normal troops, while life drain seems superior against SC's. Some would argue that normal troops are useless hence anti-normal troops spells are useless. To those people life drain is far superior.

Got clams?

Clearly Borked! Moderatly easy access to exponential growth == bad IMO!

Unimpressed with my sword of swiftness

Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays!

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I think the arrow points in the other direction. If there are a number of Posts about something being "effective" then there is a chance that something is out of wack.

That's a common misconception. Sort of like how unsung heroes are still heroes, even if people don't know or not.

I'm sure that you have played a number of on line games. Usually it starts with one or two Posts about something being "darn good." Then perhaps a discussion about it being "overpowered." This claim is almost always followed by counter claims supported by the assertion "with more experience you will understand." Sometimes the clamour dies down for a while. Then after some more time there are further Posts about how it is "imbalanced" this time more vocal. This is followed by even more people ( perhaps the very people that are exploiting the imbalance ) posting that "you simply do not see the counters" and perhaps illustrating a few ( difficult to implement or fraught with their own perils ) counters. The clamour dies down then. Then finally a good percentage of the gaming population starts doing this "abusive" strategy, and people come to the Boards en mass to say it is broken at which point the developers start to take a look.

Sheep are vocal, does that mean they are right?

It's a pretty classic cycle. Now to be sure there are plenty of people who yell "nerf" without proper justification. However I would say that, in most games ( perhaps dominions2 is the execption, time will tell ), the claims are justified more often than not.

Yes, it is classic that the most vocal try to initiate change, but is more often unjustified than justified.

Perhaps too effecive given it low research and casting requirements given that it is a battlefield effect spell that Lasts the duration of the battle. But I don't know if I want to get into specifics.

Evocation 6 is Hardly "Low". If you don't want to get into specifics, then don't say things are unbalanced. Especially when it was my Example of an obviously superior path of magic that wasn't as you claim 'borked'.

Again some may argue that it is too effective.

These people would be uninformed and aruging without basis. If Orb Lightning is too effective Fire Darts should be looked at prior to Orb Lightning.

Note this is exactly what I said about air. I see only a few problematic spells in air.

I doubt you see is what can be termed as 'problematic'.

Certianly only SOME spells seem to be out of wack. However the number of spells which seem out of wack seems great to me. I could be mistaken.

Indeed you could, especially if you can't point out any one spell. At least NTJedi pointed at the one really abusable, low cost spell in the Death Path that may be an issue if it needs to be changed. Previous to the Last patches, you could also have said Tartarians, but as it stands now, there is nothing in Death that gives it any sort of advantage over 5-6 other Paths. You seem to not be able to see or choose not to see the very real limitations of Death.

Are astral's combat spells really that superior to death? Is Slay Living/Enslave Mind for example superior to life drain? I don't know. In some cases yes, in some cases no. I would call it a push to be honest. The astral magic seems superior against normal troops, while life drain seems superior against SC's. Some would argue that normal troops are useless hence anti-normal troops spells are useless. To those people life drain is far superior.

Let me give you a list of what half are called TIDE TURNERS for Battlefield spells and the other half are the near creme of the crop individual buffs (Only a few others take priority).

Mind Duel (Limited but incredibly effective)
Stellar Cascades
Astral Fire (Includes Fire)
Nether Darts (Includes Death)
Astral Tempest (Army Killer Use Returning)
Body Ethereal
Luck
Battle Fortune (Realistic in most Games)
Doom (Army Killer)
Will of the Fates (In line with "Best Buffs of the Game")
Resist Magic
Astral Weapon (Like to kill SC's?)
Astral Shield (Like to be a SC?)
Astral Healing (The Unsung Hero for Living Armies)
Antimagic (Never leave home without it)
Communion (This is totally useless, don't do this, right?)
Paralyze (Neutered, but still extremely effective)
Soul Slay (Kill's dead, remember your Penetration Items)
Vortex of Returning (Game Winner)

Also the only Battlefield wide "Life Drain" spell is Soul Drain, all others are single target, no area effect spells. I'll leave you to guess what paths Soul Drain is.

Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays!

And watch those Lifeless units eat you up. You need to get out more.

To sum up: Seems you've been playing with too many people who only use Lifedraining SC's. This is absolutely no surprise to me as it is the easiest way to make a SC and make them effective. But they have very real weaknesses, not the least of which is an entire class of units that cannot be life drained. And for every Wraith Sword or Blood Thorn on a SC, you're going to see a Antimagic Amulet and a Luck Pendant/Luck Coin with it. If not; then that is a disregard for their gems and they're planning on having a very real loss of gems by doing so.

[ June 03, 2004, 04:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Cohen]

Don't forget Air buffing spells!
Mistform and Mirror Images (which usually in combo with the +3 Def of Quickness become very deadly, in fact I believe Mirror Images should be easier to break, perhaps removing one mirror image each time it's struck since the warrior realizes he's hit an illusion, and all mirror images if the real unit is struck). Air Queen are the strongest of Elemental Lords, ethereal, flying, mirror images by default (2 out of 3 iirc), can trapeze.

Death is superior to Astral in direct combat magic, since Death spells can't be stopped, while astrals are countered by magic resistance (easily improved by amulet of antimagic).

Astral however is a little more versatile, cause covers all aspects, but it most is beaten by others.

Blood is good for summons, Astral Corruption could be nice, but most of the battle spells require blood slaves in battle that can be easily arrowed, killed, or even burned by your heat in case of Abysya (very sad this aspect ...)

Nature is good too, except for their unique summons, that I believe should be a little "stronger" ... I mean, their problem is = move, and they cannot teleport, only Faerie Trod which is expensive. They can't too raise a lot their magic skill since they've 2 misc slot, so a Druid with a treelord staff can easily get 4N and having too the summoning vinethings bonus.

Water I believe is very nice, but only for a strict selection of Nations, water nations especially.

Fire I believe it's too strict, and not very well working. It should be the best battle magic, for direct damage, but it isn't since it could be resisted, while Death can't. Holy Pyre shouldn't be resisted by FR, if we consider the damage is HOLY and not FIERY, or however it should be affected at maximum by a 50% FR. It lacks of a generic good global. Everyone has the "gem creation global", and fire has 2 specific global, a hot increaser (specific for hot nations), and an anti undead.

Earth path is the best defence by "common" damage. Not very good IMO, except some cranking spells like Forge of the Ancients or Wizard Tower!. E bless isn't very good too ...


Summary of my mind:
Well obviously I believe Air is the most powerful, followed by Death.
Blood is fine, with his strenght and weaknesses.
Nature and Astral are fine too.
Water ... is nice too, quickness + breath of winter are very very good.
Fire is fine except for Holy Pyre as I told.
Earth should have 1 or 2 more defensive buffs, one that could be nice is a MagmaSkin, combined with 1 or 2 ranks of fire, a sort of hot breathe of winter. Or a whirlwind of sharp stones swirling around the caster.

I'd like to see in next patches some new spells with mixed paths.

Originally posted by Cohen:
Death is superior to Astral in direct combat magic, since Death spells can't be stopped, while astrals are countered by magic resistance (easily improved by amulet of antimagic).

Little Hint. There is only one spell in Death that can't be resisted. And it's a single target, 100 precision spell with 14+ Damage that requires 4D to cast. It is also Alteration 5. A more damaging spell Bone Grinding is actually a better use unless you are dealing only with a Life Draining SC that has no defense. And an AMA will only protect you from some things. You can still be Soul Slayed, and Paralyzed if you are playing someone who knows what they are doing, quite easily.

Astral however is a little more versatile, cause covers all aspects, but it most is beaten by others.

Wrong, actually Astral is usually second in EVERYTHING with the exception of summons (which if Golems didn't require Earth 2 to cast, they would not be). I don't know how often you use Stygian Paths to have an instant react force, but I'm willing to bet quite a bit Teleport and Gateway are used infinitely more. (Not to mention the Gate Stone and Boots of the Planes).

Nature is good too, except for their unique summons, that I believe should be a little "stronger" ... I mean, their problem is = move.

Treelord's suck. No question there, but Faerie Queens and Couatl's are extremely potent. Not to mention Lamia Queens.

They can't too raise a lot their magic skill since they've 2 misc slot, so a Druid with a treelord staff can easily get 4N and having too the summoning vinethings bonus.

No clue what this means, but most of the summons for Nature come with great nature skills. Also you seem to be forgetting Mandragora's.

Water I believe is very nice, but only for a strict selection of Nations, water nations especially.

Water is good for everyone. Though you don't need to have high levels of it to make it work for you.

Fire I believe it's too strict, and not very well working. It should be the best battle magic, for direct damage, but it isn't since it could be resisted, while Death can't.

Death has only one spell. And it does have the best battle magic for direct damage. If you don't believe so, try using a 9F Moloch throughout the course of a game to lay down some punishment.

Holy Pyre shouldn't be resisted by FR, if we consider the damage is HOLY and not FIERY, or however it should be affected at maximum by a 50% FR.

Witches still burned by fire. It was only Holy in the minds of those who burned them. Maybe you are putting to much emphasis on the "Holy" and less on the "Pyre".

It lacks of a generic good global. Everyone has the "gem creation global", and fire has 2 specific global, a hot increaser (specific for hot nations), and an anti undead.

If Purgatory was not limited to Dominion Only it would be a fantastic global. Second Sun is only good for heat nations, but guess what types of nations have fire magic? With the exception of Marignon they all have a heat preference.

Earth path is the best defence by "common" damage. Not very good IMO, except some cranking spells like Forge of the Ancients or Wizard Tower!.

Hrm. Defense for "Common" Damage? You mean increasing Protection to 30 with one 3E spell? Or Iron Will for MR? How about combat magic? Blade Wind? Petrify? Earthquake? Magma Eruption? Destruction? Marble Warriors? Weapons of Sharpness?

E bless isn't very good too ...

Hrm. Isn't very good? Okay.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cohen:
[QB]E bless isn't very good too ... [?QB]

I have to disagree. The earth blessing is probably one of the best for nations with strong sacred mages. This is especially true for those that use communion a lot. Earth 10 gives the mages 5 reinvigoration per turn. Add in 4 on every communicant from earthpower, and 5 from being unconscious, and the mages will regain 14 fatigue per turn. That's a huge amount.

[Cohen]

If you use communion probably you won't go for a E blessing ...
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Yes I put enphasis on HOLY because it does triple damage on undeads and daemons. If it should be fire only, well or *3 should be forgotten, or even a fireball should be *3 against undeads and demons ^^.

Death has many other combat spells, especially vs Undeads, like Dust to Dust or Wither Bones or generic ones like Shadow Bolts ...
A Wraith Lord with elemental armor can't be stopped easily without another SCs if you haven't death mages or astral (with spell focus and other mr piercing items).

However everyone has its own mind and experiences.
I'm awaiting for next patch to see some changes ... if any will occur.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cohen:
If you use communion probably you won't go for a E blessing ...

Why not? It greatly increases the amount of spells you can cast, and reduces the possibility that your communion slaves will be killed by the master. It also gives you access to a powerful earth mage, which is always a great thing to have.