Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[rabelais]

My experience with S+A has been quite different from the Boards. It rocks right out of the box.

I have had the most success going uber scales....

T1/P3/temp0/G3/L3/M1 citadel magicless nata. Sure you don't get sacred bonuses, but you don't need 'em.

Your income, while not initally fabulous, is quite adequate, your nata is easily equipable (ice swords, etc) and/or disposable.

If a nomagic nata with sacred mages makes you nervous, an Earth 4 nata works well, but them you have to be VERY careful with it. At least until the healing heroine arrives.

The citadel keeps you off the early victim list in crowded conditions, and you can get a CM every turn after very mild expansion. And the spirits fodder are invaluable.

I *do* think the S+A sacred troops need a boost, in terms of the number that can be summoned per mage turn. As it is they are not cost effective.

Also, as a pet peeve, I'm not sure why the water spirits are *POOR* amphibians... They are elemental critters, I'd think they'd get a bonus in solution!

The DoHW are actually more accessible, since a lucky MotW can summon them. The DoHF, while lovely in theory... are much too difficult to obtain.


Rabe the S+A Fan

[Endoperez]

I think that Earth 4 Nataraja dying once, or even twice, is not earthbreaking. You can still cast Summon Earthpower and Invulnerability with E3 and 2, but the fatique you gets much higher.

[tinkthank]

Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

i only quote your post but rabes is in many ways similiar there :

first name me a nation/theme that has worse troops than tien chi s&a . the composite bows are ok and the 2 summons DoHF + DoHW . but the 2 summons are hard to get in sufficient numbers .

so now a new argument :
i have made a test : with 0 scales + watchtower you get about 155-160 starting income ( depends a bit on population sometimes you get 30500 sometimes 29800 in the start )

rabe gets with P3G3T1 H0 about 160-165 starting income .

i get about 90-95 starting income with my scales . so about 55% of rabes income .
but for that i get +240 + 240 +80 + 120 points = a "uber"vq . if i give her e.g. D5 i have access to all the nice death toys without empowering expect tartarians .


at about turn 30 due to my d3 and rabes g3 my income will be only about 45-50% of his but for that i have a "uber"vq .
and luck 3 should compensate for both of us .

so i have vq but weaker economy and rabe has good scales but slower research ( i have magic 3 ) so in research we will still be both as quick .

i still think my approach is not bad too .
it is a bit extravagant but i like it .

[tinkthank]

"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)

1. Mictlan
2. Pangaia
3. Ermor

Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc.

with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it.

Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like
1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A.
2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2.
Thus, I doubt its validity.

[Mardagg]

I like S&A and I dont think that it needs improvement.
I had been quite succesful in SP games with following scales:
Turmoil:1
Sloth:2
Temp:0
Growth:3
Luck:3
Magic:3

Watch Tower,Dominion 5.
Ghost King 2W,3E,4D.

My approach seems to be exactly in between Boron`s and Rabe`s
Goal is to rely completely on summoned troops/battle mage armies as fast as possible.
S&A seems to fit very well for such a tactic:
-you have several nice starting summoning spells
-you have extremely good site search abilities
-you have very strong battle mages
-you have good research right from the start,if you only recruit national mages,no troops.

For initial expansion,I have my Ghost King SC,who, if played correctly,is very strong in conquering Indie provinces(indie strength 6 or 7),starting with it at turn 3.

I didnt play a MP game with this yet though.
I guess on a crowded map,I could have difficulties if I encounter a nation with strong national troops at the start,who is able to deal with my Breath of Winter Ghost King,e.g. Jotunheim,before I get my summonings rolling.

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)

1. Mictlan
2. Pangaia
3. Ermor

Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc.

with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it.

Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like
1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A.
2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2.
Thus, I doubt its validity.

yeah everybody has his own style

but to your suggestions of worse troops :
pangenea + ermor all themes have at least partially upkeep free freespawns / reanimations .
ok not pangenea new age but pan standard has maenads . and their normal troops are pretty good , e.g. minotaurs , revelrers .
if you mean with ermor be ermor they have principles + a kind of praetorian guard ( can't remember the name ) they have almost the same statistics as the pythium counterparts .

finally mictlan : they seem to have bad troops too but slaves are almost for free and they should seek their glory in demons anyway .
their sacred troops are not too bad .

tien chi s&a has really only the archers + the footmen worth being recruited .
but with their FORCED turmoil 1 if they want to compensate they need to invest 240 points to get the same income as any other nation who has totally flat scales .

any other nation can take order 3 death 2-3 sloth 2-3 and has higher income than tien chi s&a can ever reach .
but they have +40-120 points to spend on pretender while tien chi has to spend -240 points on economy scales .
+ additional -80 points by luck 1 and magic 1 forced by the theme .

so only few points are left for pretender .
if you want the ability to summon your first midgame summons without need for empower you need to take it on your pretender even with tien chi s&a .
the highest you may ever get in fire or air with tien chi is 3 on a celestial master .
but that only with 1/64 probability .

expect coatl all summonable mages need at least 3 more likely 4 or 5 in one path .

furthermore most path increasing items need a forge skill in the path of 3 .


with your economy scales you can only reach a income similiar to flat scales .

if my build is too extreme then take away cold 3 and turmoil 3 but keep sloth 3 and death 3 .

still i have + 240 points from sloth + death this way and only about 20-30% lower income then you with the investment of 240 points for growth 3 + prod 3 .

i have this way +480 points for only 20 - 30 % less income .


s&a is really a special case there because i know no other theme / nation which forces you to take turmoil .

with most other races i of course go too order 3 , death 2-3 and sloth 2-3 .

but because order 3 is impossible with turmoil 1+ and to compensate by growth + productivity is too expensive imho i completely go ermorlike scales with them .


if an early war breaks out i have at least a vq to scare some invaders off and you have no early game combat pretender .

as i showed most other nations have about +400 extra points for sc pretender design compared to your scales rabe and tinktank .

what troops do you use midgame then rabe ?
if you find no independent good mages and because you have a 0 magic nataraja as you said your best bet for midgame is to hope for a air 3 celestial master ( 1/64 probability ) and forge 2 +1 air items for air queens .

if man / vanheim participate they will have them earlier than you .

so you have a really hard time to field any additional sc's .

my vq instead has the ability to summon the whole death spectrum .
if i midgame summon e.g. a wraithlord he can then summon the following bane lords + item forge .

so please tell me rabe what magic troops can you field midgame to strengthen your armies ?

really curious i know i must have overlooked something with my assertions