Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

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To Cainehill, back on the Flying balance :
I don't think the Flying issue is comparable to SCs, Hoarding or many other in that Flying is a nation-specific huge advantage right from the start (for Caelum) or relatively early in the game(for blood nations).
Mech Militia et al. are not an option before mid-game, and not an option at all for many nations.
To illustrate this, in a pbem game, I (as TC) allied with Marignon and Ermor (BE) vs Caelum on turn 30-some. My allies+me were overall much stronger (in terms of income, research, gems, provinces) an yet Caelum manages to hold for 10 turns and bLasted most of Marignon and my armies.
And the game is on Hard research !

In another I'm playing Caelum (turn 25), just eradicated Arco main army (with Pretender), and on the next turn I turn against Machaka with all of my armies...
This is a just an unfair and unbalancing advantage, Caelum opponents just have no effective counter.

[Endoperez]

No effective counter against what? Masses of Caelian Archers backed up by few mages, masses of Caelian Infantry backed by some mages or lots of seraphs backed up by some archers/infantry?

Caelum's archers are quite good, but still die quickly if anything gets next to them. And they eat a lot. Fast Caelian infanty is quite bad, too. And the good ones are not only expensive but slightly slower as well. And the "lighter complexion" of Caelians that enables flight also makes them weaker than their human counterparts. I haven't tried them in MP, but I quess they will be quickly decimated if your enemy manages to surprise you in any way. And the mages are excellent, as they should.

I can see mountains blocking flyers, but I don't think swamps or forests would be much of a hinderance to them. Maybe in Dom3...

[The Panther]

The real problem is that once Caelum gets false horrors, which is not all that far into the game for the fastest researching nation, it gives that race a supreme advantage. A single Seraph can kill up to 10 PD reliably, except perhaps for Ulm or Jontunheim. And a Seraph with 2 archers can take those two nations too, losing maybe one archer in the first volley to Ulm and losing nothing to Jontun. Even if you lose one raiding force and take only 9 of 10 desired provinces, so what?

In what is still early game, Caelum can therefore take pretty much any province against ANYBODY that can be reached. Want three enemy provinces? No problem! How about 6? Getting harder, but sure. Ten? Yup, I have done that and more in a single turn in an MP game. It cannot be stopped without having a castle in every province.

As long as fliers can jump over provinces AND attack in the same move, flying will be an unbalanced ability. Thus making Caelum the best race for the early game and deep into the middle game. As for the end game, it may no longer be best, but will still be in the top 5 because of the early game advantages.

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
It cannot be stopped without having a castle in every province.

This is when you take your armies ans smash down his undefended watchtowers.

[The Panther]

Graeme Dice said:
This is when you take your armies ans smash down his undefended watchtowers.

Of course you can always strike back. But the fliers can strike three deep into enemy territory and the stronger land army can strike only one deep back.

I was getting 5-10 provinces and losing 0-8 each turn for like 15 turns against three opponents. I was also taxing many of those at 200% for multiple turns and using the money to get even more Seraphs and plenty more cheap archers to keep reloading. Everything I lost was easily replaced and then some. Everything my opponents lost was gone for good.

It was surprisingly easy to overrun my opponents with about 10-20 separate armies composed of one Seraph spamming false horrors plus 5 archers. I lost many of those sacrificial strike forces, but it simply made no difference in the long run.

And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances. I never once lost any of my own towers. Even better, it was typically easy to cut off the retreat path with my annoying fliers and poof any enemy who might have survived the battle.

Strategic flying is definitely overpowered. I have been on the receiving end of this strategy more than once and the dishing end but this one time. It is far more pleasant to be doing it than having it done to you.

[Cohen]

I'd completely agree with Panther.

[Tuidjy]

Cohen said:I'd completely agree with Panther.

Amazingly enough, that does not make Panther completely wrong.

It's phases like 'fastest researching nation', 'draconians, hawks, and up to
about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers', 'supreme advantage' that do. Whom
was he plaing against? Someone with neither a clue, a long term plan, nor
even superficial knowledge of Caelum's tricks.

One thing's for sure. I have never had a problem with fighting Caelum when I
have played Pythium, Vanheim or C'tis. I hate Jotunheim, but I think that they
would also easily deal with Caelum. Yes, Caelum is among the top nations,
especially if diplomacy is forbidden, but I stopped played them when I
realized how limited they are in the late game. The one time I have fought
a strong Caelum nation with Vanheim, I was winning only one battle in three,
but six turns after the war started, he did not have a castle that could
produce anything... and he had not killed a single mage of mine. Afterward,
a few cold immune Vanadrotts trapezed on top of his province-taking squads,
and he went AI.

Do not get me wrong. On a small map, or with clear teams, I would like to play
Caelum. But on a decent sized map with ten players, I would pick a race with
no glaring weaknesses, and that excludes Caelum.

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances. I never once lost any of my own towers.

You must not have been facing a very competent opponent then, since there are plenty of spells he could have used to destroy all of your seraphs and normal troops, thus leaving only your tougher troops to deal with. It's very easy to make units that Seraphs can't hurt, and that can also deal quite well with air queens and the like.

Strategic flying is definitely overpowered.

I've yet to see any kind of convincing argument for this.

[alexti]

The Panther said:
And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances.

You're expected to lose all your seraphs and archers to a competent player in such a battle though...

[The Panther]

alexti said:
You're expected to lose all your seraphs and archers to a competent player in such a battle though...

I fail to see how a competent Caelum player will lose any seraphs. 40 false horrors on the second move, then 80 on the third. Too much fear for anything but perhaps undead. Even enemy fliers can only kill a few of the archers who are close by.

In particular, Ulm had no chance. His smiths always targeted his own troops once the horrors appeared. His best strategy was scripting fire shield on his commanders where he could.

Jontunheim did quite a bit better, simply due to the sheer Lasting power of the infantry plus bane lords. Surprisingly enough, the seraphs frequently switched to frozen heart against the bane lords and Jontun infantry once the script ran out, which was very good.

Arco was a rookie in his second MP game, that much was true. He could have beat me with the astral mind spells which ignore the horrors. But he had too many priests and not enough astrologers.

Still, at most, I can see losing some archers in a big battle. Certainly not 20 seraphs. Especially since Caelum can get false horrors so very quick if they want. Most specific counters take a lot longer to research than Caelum going straight to Alt 6. Also, the seraphs are so incredibly cheap for their power that Caelum will always have more fighting mages than any other race.

I will agree that Caelum becomes somewhat limited late game, but I have not played past about turn 70 in any MP game as yet.