Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them All

[Endoperez]

I don't think Tolkien took Elves from Finnish mythology. I'm not very knowledgeable about the subject myself (), but I think Finnish myths mainly tell of shapeshifting trolls that and tiny gnomes/elves as local spirits that will reward good deeds (and food left for them) with good luck.

However, there is one story in Silmarillion that is clearly inspired by Kalevala. The story of Turin has similarities with the story of Kullervo, the hapless. Song of Hiawatha, by American poet Longfellow, is written in English but using the style and rhythmh of Kalevala. It might represent the style better than the translated Kalevala.

EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations.

[Reverend Zombie]

Endoperez said:
EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations.

Yeah, let somebody mod it if they really want it!

[daesthai]

Reverend Zombie said:

Yeah, let somebody mod it if they really want it!

Points taken. Especially the tutorial reference. Though I find the out-of-place reference interesting. Though the current nations have their mythological similarities, they come from a variety of mythos. So why not one more? I do agree that we've been recently re-inundated with Tolkien and it seems cliche, but is that possibly because it is a young mythos, historically speaking, and one that is very familiar and currently popular?

I guess the question comes down to - Do you feel Tolkien's Middle Earth qualifies as a mythos - and one on par with the others represented? Obviously it is a beautiful narrative and has created a complete history for itself and the cultures within it. But is there something lacking? I guess my stance in the debate reveals my personal thought here. But I'm curious what others think.

If I offer the previously stated thought that its current popularity (along with some truly obsesive fans) is at least partially to blame for its supposed trite-ness, and that when Tolkien created it, it was not cliche, but fresh... Given that, does Tolkien's middle earth qualify as a mythos on a level with those already in the game?

[Wish]

shoot if we want tolkiens world in here, why not have Zelazneys Amber worked in somehow. How about harry potter's wizard culture?

to much?

GEEZ!

[Ed Kolis]

Um, why is Tolkien any worse to put in a game than, say, Lovecraft???

[Psitticine]

Speaking of the Kalevala, I'd recommend it to anybody who hasn't read it. (For whatever my recommendation is worth, that is . . . ) It isn't as well known in the US as some other works, but is very, very good.

Any fans of MST3k may remember an episode where they showed The Day The Earth Froze. That was a psychodelically bad version of the Kalevala (well, one bit of it). I'm not sure if you can really get a feel of the real thing from it, but it is still an interesting bit of trivia.

[Cainehill]

Yeh - the Kalevala, with Vainemoyen (sp?) and the other Finnish heroes is certainly on a par with the Silmarrilion, GRRM's pre-tellings, and other mythic histories and top shelf fantastic fiction. (I'm also tempted to add, mmm, all of Zimmer's work (Marion Zimmer Bradley's brother, who died far too young), and most of Simon Green and Glen Cook's; also early Gemmell and Zelazny (who did some of the _most_ amazing stuff - best in short stories, but amazing in Lord of Light), and George R R Martin - very popular now for his Game of Thrones, Storm of Swords, etc, but very good in the old days too (Dying of the Light, etc).

[Reverend Zombie]

Psitticine said:
Any fans of MST3k may remember an episode where they showed The Day The Earth Froze. That was a psychodelically bad version of the Kalevala (well, one bit of it). I'm not sure if you can really get a feel of the real thing from it, but it is still an interesting bit of trivia.

Sampo!

[Nerfix]

Psitticine said:
Speaking of the Kalevala, I'd recommend it to anybody who hasn't read it. (For whatever my recommendation is worth, that is . . . ) It isn't as well known in the US as some other works, but is very, very good.

*slaps hands together*

Excelent, our cultural imperialism seems to be working very well.

I feel that the wizard-poet-warriors would make a good addition to Dominions.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

daesthai said:
I guess the question comes down to - Do you feel Tolkien's Middle Earth qualifies as a mythos - and one on par with the others represented? Obviously it is a beautiful narrative and has created a complete history for itself and the cultures within it. But is there something lacking? I guess my stance in the debate reveals my personal thought here. But I'm curious what others think.

It's waaaaaay too manichean for me. All this Good-vs-Evil-war thing reminds me too much of Spinrad's Iron Dream.