Stealth Armor: Unbalanced

Beck · #1 December 12th, 2001, 11:43 PM

An Uber-weapon specific to races wouldn't have to be MAD, it would depend on what the item was. All I was trying to do was point out there are ways of balancing other than simply giving everybody a counter. If I can't see them now because I haven't developed the right scanner, I have to adapt my style of play to make allowances for not being able to see them. The only difference a Uber-cloak would make, is I'll never be able to see them unless I trade for a scanner. The point is they could be very expensive and use alot of supplies and take up alot of space. Then if someone wants to put one in a ship, he's trading off room for weapons to be able to move undetected and quality for quantity as he'll probably never be able to build very many. And while he could move undetected, at some point he'll have to decloak to attack and then on a ship for ship basis be outgunned. You'ld spend more time building defenses for each planet, etc. And his special cloaked ships will more than likely be more for special missions than his main fleet because of cost/maintenance.

Phoenix-D · #2 December 13th, 2001, 12:14 AM

"And while he could move undetected, at some point he'll have to decloak to attack and then on a ship for ship basis be outgunned"

Two words: Star Destroyer. (planet killers would work too)

Phoenix-D

bearclaw · #3 December 13th, 2001, 12:30 AM

Wow, all these ideas and no time to create an "Ultimate Cloak" mod.....

Slightly off topic, but a comment that I feel I should make. Someone below mentioned about experaince affecting sensor abilites (fantastic idea, by the way!). I know this would be an effort to code into the game but Experiance should count for all sorts of things. Not just combat stuff. Sensors is a good example. Another would be ships of a high enough XP could do spot repairs to damaged systems. Say, for each 10 xp, a ship can repair 1% of damage. Done all the time in Star Trek and Star Wars too. In fact, come to think of it... it's a fairly standard Sci-Fi thing to do...

Beck · #4 December 13th, 2001, 05:50 AM

quote:
Two words: Star Destroyer. (planet killers would work too)

Yet if they were as expensive to build as I think they would have to be for any sort of balance coupled with the component for destroying a star which is already darn expensive you're talking something would decade or more to build. And with items that are or likely to be near the end of the research tree its something that would be appearing in the end game. They could lose the war long before one left spacedock let alone reach a star. He'ld have to send a fleet along with it because any systems I had important enough for you to waste a star destroyer on would have some sort of defenses on the star itself. Surely a player exercising such abilities in a human game would find himself a potential target of a coalition as other players band together or die one at a time. Just the threat that he could develop the technology could be enough in some games for players to gang up on them long before they have the capability to do as you suggest.

Phoenix-D · #5 December 13th, 2001, 07:46 AM

The ONLY way to kill a ship you can't see is with mines. If a ship decloaks in a sector with enemies, combat doesn't start. Therefore, defending with anything other than mines is pointless, (against a star/planet killer), they'll just die or be useless. Given the limit of 100 mines (plus or minus a few) it's not hard to send in sweepers enough to clear a field for 100% sure. Unstoppable destruction.

Combine that with the fact that any inhabited system defending against this player would have to be heavily defended ALL THE TIME, lest he pick off your colonies more or less at will, and it's likely the tonnage and cost destroyed will way exceed the cost of the ship.

quote:
Surely a player exercising such abilities in a human game would find himself a potential target of a coalition as other players band together or die one at a time.

More likely everyone takes that trait.

EDIT: cost wise, a BC with a cloak, shield, armor and max move costs 112k/52k/103k and takes 2.5 years to build on a homeworld with maxed space yards. Assuming your "uber cloak" costs 10 times that much, the cost becomes 129760/51k/108880 and the time 2.9 years.

Even if it's that much cost or more (and 10k IS a lot of additional cost for a normal ship), having your opponent be totally invisible, and therefore able to strike you more or less at will, would probably be far too frustrating. Unique components are fine, but unique totally uncounterable components are just irritating.

Phoenix-D

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Q · #6 December 13th, 2001, 04:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LGM:
Who cares about the AI?

I do!

I agree that it will be practically impossible to create an AI that will win without major bonuses against a good human player in SE IV. But I do believe that it is very interesting to make an AI as strong as possible. And certainly if you want to play when you have time and not when the next turn is awaited from other human players you need the AIs. So I think SE IV should give players both possibilities: to play against humans and to play against AI's that are as good as possible.

Baron Munchausen · #7 December 13th, 2001, 07:35 PM

Honestly, I don't expect the AI to beat a human player. I expect the AI to not make utterly stupid blunders. Like constantly sending the same number of ships with the same tech level against a force that can defeat them with ease. Or forgetting that it even had a claim to a system once you've destroyed its colonies there. If the AI can be made to retain a bit of memory and make NEW approaches when its first attempt fails then it'll be good enough.