Halt Heretic - Opinions

[Dedas]

Endoperez said:

Morningstars and flails get +2 attack against shielded units.

Yeah, hammer/shield guys are definitely worst of the lot. They are just inferior compared to morningstar/shield troops, while maul and battleaxe don't really differ from each other.

Mauls are less expensive in resources, making them the least expensive troop in the whole of Ulm's arsenal. The "drawback" is one less defense.
If you are fighting low attack high HP units like giants and Agarthans battle axes might be more preferable.

[Edi]

Ah, a favorite subject of mine, progression from EA to MA to LA and how to tie it all together. Better brace yourselves, people.

It all begins (and ends) with Ermor, since that nation is most intimately tied with so many others (C'tis, Pythium, Ulm, Marverni, Marignon and perhaps even Arcoscephale). According to the original script, Ermor rose to become a mighty nation that conquered most of the world and then fell into darkness in a cataclysmic disaster that brought the Ashen Empire into being.

In Dominions 2 we got the Broken Empire as an alternate historical timeline. When Dominions 3 came around, Kristoffer put Broken Empire in MA and tried to make all the tangled history work together though it doesn't do it very well because they are parallel alternate timelines. That's why it gives us such schizophrenic side effects with some of the other nations and why the Ashen Empire descriptions clash with MA Ermor's.

In the case of Ulm, it was one of the conquered territories that was subjugated and so was Marverni. If we go by what I personally consider the official history (i.e. the original story), things make a lot more sense. The Augur Elders dabbled with stolen C'tissian secrets, screwed up and caused the cataclysm. Cue Ashen Empire (which really should be in MA by that account). For the barbarians of Ulm who have been Ermorian vassals for a few centuries, this would represent the ultimate corruption and taint their views on magic pretty damned severely. So they turn to steel and eschew magic. Marverni, which has been absorbing more influences from Ermor and is more influenced by their old Flamen and numina cults and which was always more devoutly religious turns even deeper into religion and brings the cleansing power of holy fire to bear on the nemesis. MA Ulm and MA Marignon, i.e. the original Ulm and Marignon, are born.

Later, when the Ashen Empire has finally been defeated (or is about to be or is not yet, depending on how you want the story to go), the Iron Cult emerges in Ulm and starts gaining influence. Eventually it causes unrest and schisms inside Ulm, possibly with the help of corrupted elements from elsewhere, Ermorian Death Cultists, what have you and all kinds of dark practices get introduced in secret cabals. Civil war between the Black Order, the Iron Cult (which may or may not have already absorbed the Black Knights) and the master smiths and their supporters gives the secret factions more leeway to work their dark designs that culminate in the Malediction. Basically, a usurper god kicks the old, feeble god of MA Ulm off the throne, curses the land and alters its characteristics and brings about the Ulm of the Black Forest.

Meanwhile in Marignon, heresy has been stamped out and the Chalice Knights grow complacent, unrest from neighboring Ulm spills over, there may or may not be other influences at work here too and these funny little devil cults start cropping up, some perhaps even inside the church, born out of the fear and desperation of prominent clergy who are willing to pay any price to avoid the kingdom being overrun by the Ashen Empire. An inquisitor looking the other way here, a few blood sacrifices there, some pious blather about the common good requiring hard choices and a few choice appeals to how sacrifices were okay in the old days (Marverni) and pretty soon we're talking about the Dom2 era Diabolic Faith Marignon, which is essentially what the LA Marignon in Dom3 is (only with the Conquerors of the Sea theme tacked on and it's a fairly poor fit in my opinion).

That's a nice little progression there that makes perfect sense and has deliciously many shades of gray and makes for grand drama. It all practically requires Ashen Empire to be MA and Ermor's fall to be cataclysmic.

*****

The other side of the coin, Broken Empire... Suddenly, MA Ulm is no longer a logical continuation of the events of EA and the Fall of Ermor. Marignon likewise. C'tis starts having thematical problems, but on a far, far lesser scale. This is all true only as long as Broken Empire Ermor stays in MA. But what if Broken Empire migrates to Late Era while Ashen Empire sneaks back into Middle Era?

Cue following alternate history, drawn from Edi's overactive imagination:

So, some smart cookies in the EA Ermor took a look at how the Empire was going, saw that it'd be a good idea for continued longevity to get out while the getting is good and set themselves up in a comfortable exile in Pythium. Ulm and Marignon and all the others keep on fighting Ashen Empire, with help from Pythium perhaps as well and this goes on through the Middle Era. C'tissian advisers on Death magic come to Pythium to give them aid and together with influences from Arcoscephale and points further give rise to the cultic system that comes into its own in Late Era.

We remember that in the Late Era, the Theurgs have become superfluous in face of the Serpent Cult and its allies the Cult of the Sacred River of Life and Death (another Cult if C'tissian origin). At the same time, Ermorian exiles who may have had more than a little support among the old Theurgic order amalgamate the teachings of the C'tissian River of Life and Death cult and the Theurgic order, giving rise to the Thaumaturgs.

Say they have a very strong presence somewhere in the provinces along the border with old Ermor proper and after the final defeat of the Ashen Empire are looking to get their heritage back. So they take two or three provinces lock, stock and barrel, strike out on their own and make a pact with some new god on the side, that they will serve him and keep Death at bay if this new god helps them make Old Ermor habitable again. So instead of being the one, final gasping speedbump in the way of an emerging Ashen Empire, they would in this history be cleaning up the wreck and trying to put the shards of the broken empire back together again. Wresting the land back from the Ash, as it were, and they'd need power over the dead to make it work.

So, this is not an official history of the Dominions world, but it's the one I prefer because it neatly solves a lot of otherwise complicated continuum problems that make my head explode if I try to work out a Broken Empire Ermor in MA.

Too bad that switching the Broken and Ashen Empire around right now would break a whole lot of crockery with the community and ongoing games. I might be tempted to actually make a modded BE Ermor switched to LA sometime. All it needs is descriptions redone...

[B0rsuk]

To be blunt, some nations weren't meant for progression, but as alternate versions. It seems like Kristoffer decided it was better to put them in anyway instead of just throwing away. Fair enough.

More about Ulm: in a way, Ulm progression is:

1-3-2

At least as far as armour and magic is concerned. I completely forgot Ulm supposedly comes from Ermor. Perhaps because Pythium and Marignon look more convincing for me. Looking at Pythium it's hard to forget it comes from Ermor. If anything, it might be a little too similar. Ok, but as far as units go, MA Ulm has little similarities with EA Ulm, and with Ermor, too. Now that Ulm has inquisition, it may have more in common with Marignon than Ermor, and Marignon just got less unique.

I think Ulm's infantry should be buffed and buffed until their strategic move (1), low MR, and extreme expense become necessary to keep them from being overpowered.

[Shovah32]

Edi, I love you. I'd always just thought of it as Ulm/Marignon/Pythium getting out when they saw things start to go bad but your alternate timeline just seems to make more sense to me.
And of course, Ashen Empire vs MA Marignon could be pretty awesome.

Finally, it would allow one of my favourite nations(MA Ermor) into the late age.

[Sombre]

I don't really see a problem with Ermor's progression through the ages, in a general sense.

They start out as republic style roman nation with old and new faiths vying for control. They are influenced by the sauromancers and go down the path of death magic heavily. Overuse of this death magic has terrible results and you get Ashen Empire.

I know it doesn't fit the descriptions exactly, but it makes sense to me. They slide into an undead nation. MA is just the halfway point.


I agree that EA -> MA Ulm is a bit odd, but given the length of time,.. well Germany changed a lot from migratory tribes to the Holy Roman Empire. I see EA Ulm as a pre-national faction, before 'civilisation' really kicked in and therefore very different. The connection being steel. But EA Ulm is a bit of a weird nation, due to the whole balance issue of the female troops being flat out better than the males, so I basically end up playing them as amazons.

[Saulot]

There are two problems here, as pertain to this thread.

One (this was mentioned several times) is MA Ulm still has basically no influence from either EA Ulm, or Ermor.

Two, your story (which I confess I like and is logical) conflicts with the dominions storyline and atmosphere in one key way, that it is essentially one of decline and doom. This is I suspect why KO went with the Ashen after the Broken, and the Malediction after the Iron Faith.

Obviously the parallel timelines are what caused these problems, and is a good reminder why parallel universes and time travel should not be touched with a ten foot pole, as they tend to muck everything up.

[llamabeast]

So, like Sombre, I see the progression of Ermor as reasonable. It's fine, then a bit corrupted by death magic, then totally destroyed.

Marverni is essentially the pre-occupation Gauls and Celts, EA Ulm the Germanic tribes. By MA, Ermor has conquered them, and then declined so that Ulm, Marignon and Pythium have broken away. Marverni presumably either remains occupied or is no longer important. Ulm is Germanic again, only much further on in their history - it's a medieval rather than barbaric theme. Marignon is France/Spain in the Inquisition, and Pythium is Byzantium. Sorted!

[Edi]

Sombre, Saulot, the reason I place Ashen Empire after EA by preference is because when I once asked about this, Kristoffer said that it was supposed to have happened that way and things got complicated with the introduction of Broken Empire.

The gradual decline model messes with the continuity a lot more than the catastrophic fall, but it's the one we have to live with. The things is that people were asking WTF was up with the Ulm eras and I provided an explanation for it. Black Forest was always supposed to be after the Iron Kingdom just as Pythium was always Byzantium to Ermor's Rome. Ashen Empire and Broken Empire are originally parallel alternates and I think the idea of reclamation never occurred to Illwinter due to the work they had already done on BE in Dom2. So they made it a decline, which then has people asking all these questions about the continuity.

As far as Marverni goes, we have Kristoffer on record saying that Marignon is MA Marverni, meaning the nation changes drastically due to Ermorian influence when going from early to middle era.

[NTJedi]

I like the Halt Heretic trait... it would be nice to see a few summoning spells for units with this trait allowing more than one nation to use this strategy against sacred armies with strong blesses.