Poland OOB

[dmnt]

Poland to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2PL:
http://www.defence24.com/312490,leop...n-battle-tanks

It's a long, good article going into details. In short:

• Deliveries planned in 2017-2020: 2017 prototypes (2 tanks), 2018 18 tanks (6+12 by two factories), 2019-2020 the majority (all together to 128 tanks) and in 2021 the remaining last ones (14 tanks).
• Upgraded L44 cannon to support DM63A1 Sabot ammunition as well as programmable DM11 HE ammunition.
• 3 tons of armor increase for turret, none for hull. Turret ballistic protection level to be higher than 2A5 standard.
• New stabilizer, fire control, vision systems (2A7 levels)
• Safety system upgrades for the crew

[blazejos]

Leopard 2PL

Here are photos of polish modernised Leopard 2A4 to version Leopard 2PL

http://i.imgur.com/q4jiQVl.jpg

There is also article in polish but translated with google translator what systems were modernised
https://translate.google.pl/translat...-text=&act=url


PT-16

Proposed modernisation package for older T-72 and PT-91 to bring them closer to leopard standard as for now is a demonstrator only Polish army isn't certain that will modernised this older tanks.

Photo
http://i.imgur.com/hivatwU.jpg

https://aw.my.com/en/forum/showthrea...05-Leopard-2PL

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Poland to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2PL:
http://www.defence24.com/312490,leop...n-battle-tanks
...

026 Leopard 2PL - of course, like most of Polish AFV upgrade programs, it remained in plans only as for now
However, since mid-2014 Poland operates regular ex-German Leopard 2A5 (what I indicated three years ago), with better armour, which should definitely replace Leopard 2PL (photo is correct). They also use Polish-made HE ammo, like unit 023.

023 Leopard 2A4P - it's a detail, but it has inexplicable big weight. 2A4P seems not real designation (it was possibly some planned upgrade), but it represents the tank with HE ammo.

037 Krab - first battery was about to be delivered only in 11/2012 (Polish article: http://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=8763&q=krab). Earlier there existed prototypes in a factory, so probably the first date should be changed. Same for 759 Krab Platoon.

Finally, by 8/2017 there was delivered a complete battalion (on new chassis) and orders speeded up, so this unit should be duplicated with an ordinary radio code from that date. It is also known as AHS Krab (''armato-haubica samobieżna'' - SP gun-howitzer), but it doesn't seem official designation

In July 2017 the first batch of 120mm SP-mortars Rak was delivered - http://www.army-technology.com/proje...mortar-system/ (Rosomak chassis, something similar to Russian #595 2S23 Nona-SVK), other photos: http://iu.wp.mil.pl/userfiles/image/regi3.jpg

That's all with news as for now. We could add newest brainchild of our (suspected...) MoD, a OT infantry (territorial defence), being a bunch of weekend amateurs with newest MSBS Grot rifles, but I wouldn't bother... (http://www.defence24.com/664005,msbs...apons-analysis). Unless we'd just copy a standard infantry squad and platoon organization and give them much less experience, maybe a bit more morale. Maybe it should be added in the future, since it seems to be a lasting element of the Polish Army..

btw: weapon #07 wz.88 Tanta AR is a typo, should be Tantal AR.

misc: unit 958 Orlik has a jet icon, while it is a prop plane (upper view: http://mazuryairshow.pl/wp-content/u...lik-scheme.png, http://i.iplsc.com/pzl-130-orlik-tc-...B6-C322-F4.jpg). Might be replaced with something generic (the best: grey), since they are rather not important, and their COIN use is highly speculative.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

023 Leopard 2A4P - ... 2A4P seems not real designation (it was possibly some planned upgrade), but it represents the tank with HE ammo.

A look back explained, that it first was a speculative tank with missiles. Therefore it should be named just Leopard 2A4 (or A4+, like unit 022) (or other name to indicate HE ammo). BTW, HE ammo was accepted in 12/2012, and entered full-scale production from 2014, so this tank might need a half-year shift (now starts in 6/12).

Unfortunately, Polish Leopards have too good ammo in the game (sabot pen. 86). In fact they used only German old DM33A1 (in German oob penetration 70, if it is weapon #100 120mm L44 WG87).

Only from 2015 there has been delivered mysterious Polish Mesko-manufactured APFSDS-T (no name, sometimes credited as Pz.531). There is an information, that it offers at least 500 mm RHA penetration (http://promilitaria21.home.pl/autoin...pfsds-t-120-mm ).

The same ammo is used be Leo 2A5. However, there was also a mention in one article, that along with Leo 2A5 there arrived a small emergency batch of "modern" ammo...

--------

Mi-24 helicopters:

It appeared, that Polish Mi-24s run out of (obsolete) AT missiles by 2012 (article in Polish https://www.trojmiasto.pl/wiadomosci...i-n106076.html).

So, units 124 Mi-24D and 125 Mi-24W should end at 12/12 at best (Mi-24D weren't withdrawn by then).
BTW, proper icon for 125 Mi-24W is 3494, used for all terrains.
Also 124 Mi-24D should use the same icon 3487 for all.

126 Mi-24D - should be available until some 2022 (they are still in use), icon 3487 for all (rocket-only armed camouflaged Mi-24D helicopters were used in Iraq in 2004-2008).

098 Mi-24W - it differs in a higher TI/GSR 40, but in fact none of Polish Mi-24 had modernized aiming systems, so I believe it should be standard 30.

At least since 2004, Mi-24 after refit are painted green (icon 3485), so I suggest to make this unit available from 2004, with green icon and no missiles.

photos of green ones: https://skrzydla.org/photos/2010-11-20/80605.jpg
http://pzdata.cdn.aikelo.com/pzdata2/Images/25498
http://s3.flog.pl/media/foto/1857256...idok-mozna.jpg

There should be also created a variant with two underwing 23mm GSh-23L guns (weapon #187) - they were probably used since beginning, but got more popular on photos only last times. So I suggest it should be based upon green Mi-24W, available since 2004. Although photos usually show them with two gun pods only, they probably can carry half of their 57mm rockets as well.

(photo http://www.defence24.pl/uploads/imag...a64fb8afb9.jpg)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In July 2017 the first batch of 120mm SP-mortars Rak was delivered - http://www.army-technology.com/proje...mortar-system/ (Rosomak chassis, something similar to Russian #595 2S23 Nona-SVK), other photos: http://iu.wp.mil.pl/userfiles/image/regi3.jpg

[Pibwl]

Beautiful

Originally Posted by Pibwl

026 Leopard 2PL - of course, like most of Polish AFV upgrade programs, it remained in plans only as for now

I must admit, I haven't checked progress in Leopard 2PL program, since they aren't in service yet. However, they were already ordered and deliveries of pre-series tanks are expected from 6/18.

The turret armour is said to be better, than in 2A5. Some claim, that it is 2A7 level (Polish article: http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/demo...o-leopard-2pl/), but this article http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard_2pl.htm says "it offers higher protection than turret of the Leopard 2A5, however it can not match protection level of the Leopard 2A7".
Now turret front anti-HEAT is much worse than 2A5 (130 vs 185). Turret extra sides are thicker, than in A5, and might be A7 level indeed.
On the other hand, there is no information, that hull armour is to be modified, so it should stay on 2A4 level.

Fire control system is not to be upgraded in any substantial way, apart from newer and better TI cameras (which don't affect FC directly, I guess). (article in Polish: http://www.altair.com.pl/e-report/view?article_id=820). I think that FC should be max 50 (2A5 has 45, German early 2A6 has 50).

New ammo DM53 is expected to be used (I hope, that the politicians won't decide, that they have a modernized tank, so they could save on ammo...). Therefore it should have better gun, than others. It should be given also some HE ammo (DM11).

An icon might need to be changed in a future, because a turret shape is different, but there are no good upper views as for now. I thought Turkish 7527 could do, but it has an extra side hull armour (and a longer barrel - but should it?... ).

The best kind of upper views are here: http://www.nowastrategia.org.pl/demo...o-leopard-2pl/

A photo is 2A5 now. There are photos of a prototype only as for now, most interesting is: http://zbiam.pl/artyku%C5%82y/pierws...u-leopard-2pl/

Of course, apart from Leo 2PL, there should be regular Leopard 2A5 available since mid-2014.

[Pibwl]

There appeared some more information about PT-91 Twardy tanks, basically confirming my analysis from this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=48222&page=2 , but some things might be improved.

In a meantime, there were first of all articles in Poligon 3/2013 and Nowa Technika Wojskowa (nTW) 9/2015, and a deep analysis of Erawa ERA, made by author of the latter article: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/a...eaktywne-erawa (in Polish)

Now we have:

010 PT-91 Twardy (1/95-12/95) - first model without TI (#129 gun D81T 75, sabot 43)

There was an information in nTW 11/1995, that the first series tanks delivered in 1995 were fitted with TI as well, but on the other hand, some articles say in general about tanks with TI and with passive night vision only (without details as for numbers or dates, though). Prototypes had no TI, but it might have been bought in time for production machines... I'd tend to fit this tank with TI (a difference between unit 018 would still be radio code).

018 PT-91 Twardy (1/96-12/98) - basic model with TI.

021 PT-91 Twardy (1/99-125) - #161 PO-99 gun (sabot 54) - because of a small quantity of Pronit sabot rounds available, it should have only a couple of sabot rounds (say 4), and the rest - regular AP (which exist in #161 gun, and has a penetration 43, like sabot of #129 gun)

711 PT-91MA1 (1/99-125) - strange variant with weaker armour, PO-99 gun, better stabilizer, 3 top ERA - apparently added after my changes (...unless I overlooked it when I researched Polish OOB in 2012).

The last tank is wrong and I don't know what it represents - it has weaker basic armour than other PT-91, and even T-72M1. All of these should have the same armour. Neither the stabiliser has been improved (not counting a stabiliser diagnostic system fitted in all PT-91, which rather does not improve it lousy work). PT-91MA1 is an official designation of T-72s modernized to PT-91 standard, but it is never used in practice, and all are just referred to as PT-91, without much practical differences (BTW designations are rather contradictory in available articles). So it should be replaced with something else.

Conclusions:

All PT-91 should have ERA top armour (at least 5) - almost 50% of upper surface is covered with ERA, and more tightly fitted, than in Soviet tanks (https://www.the-blueprints.com/bluep...-p/pt-91-2.png)

Survivability of all tanks might be improved over T-72M1 (5 instead of 4), due to new Deugra firefighting system (Russian T-90 has 5).

Instead of 4 SD and 2 VIRSS it would be better to change to 3 SD, 3 VIRSS (the tanks have 12 SD tubes and 12 VIRSS tubes).

There was finally published an information, that part of Erawa-1 ERA was replaced with Erawa-2, made of two layers of explosive, two thin armoured steel sheets and a ceramic tile. It was revealed, that during tests it decreased efficiency of early APFSDS, like Russian 3BM15, by around 57%, and even in one case prevented German DM33A1 from penetrating a front plate. Maybe it should be treated as advanced ERA then?... It is not as effective against modern long core APFSDS, but it has been suggested, that their efficiency would be lowered by 7-10%. ERAWA-2 is mounted on hull front and turret front and sides. There are no dates given, but most probably it was connected with a new configuration of turret ERA (on vertical strips with 3 blocks instead of individual blocks), introduced between 1996 and 9/1997 (when I've first seen such tank on MSPO defence industry exhibition .

So, I suggest to introduce a new model with advanced ERA on front and turret sides, basing upon unit #018, available from some 6/97 to 125 (it might replace unit #711). A photo should be 32261 from unit 021, with new ERA strips (photo 29495 of unit 711 shows early tank).
Also, unit #021 with Pronit sabot could have its armour upgraded.

There's a hope, that PT-91s will eventually be modernized by 2020 (in a way suggested in numerous articles from 1998 to 2015...), following Leo 2 modernization. We could add such tank now, with better ammo (500-600 RHA), good stabilizer and improved gun accuracy (thanks to new Slovak or Ukrainian gun models)*. I understand that you don't like future tanks (and I don't like either), but I guess, that with such modest expectations, and a modernization plans closing to reality, it won't be too much wishful thinking.

------
* BTW: according to a quoted article in nTW 9/2015, 2A46 gun mounted in T-72 up to Russian model A/M1 (and in other older tanks) had mediocre accuracy, due to bigger backlash and asymmetric recuperators. Its accuracy was much improved in 2A46M model, mounted in T-72B, newer variants of T-80, T-90 and yet better 2A46M-5 mounted in T-72B3. All 125mm guns in the Russian OOB have accuracy 13, apart from the gun from Armata tank...

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Instead of 4 SD and 2 VIRSS it would be better to change to 3 SD, 3 VIRSS (the tanks have 12 SD tubes and 12 VIRSS tubes).

If you ( or anyone else ) is going to make suggestions for OOB changes you better make sure you understand how the game works in regard to that change and in this case you clearly do not. There is NO code that gives 3 VIRSS and you should have checked that before posting

[Pibwl]

Sorry, Don.