The Power of Pangaea - Centaur Warriors

[Keir Maxwell]

A while back Jasper commented that having tested Pangaea he came back with the view that the order Version was clearly better than the luck Version and I couldn't understand this as it means no Maenads. Having tested Pangaea I think I know why Japser came to this view - Centaurs Warrriors.

The basic Centaur Warrior is an awesome unit. 40gps, 11res, for 20hps, 13str, 16def, 11prot, MR13, 2 attacks, javelins, stealthy, berserk3, move 3/29, and (I think) the ability to recover from afflictions. Tough and fast to build due to low resource cost.

By the time I attacked Ctis (t.16) I had a force of 45 Centaur Warriors 15 Centaur archers, 4 Horned Serpents and a few javelin satyr to attract enemy fire (very worthwhile) in my main army. I made the generally fatal mistake of having my Dryad sneak with 20 CW and 7CA but still thrashed a large Ctis army with the remaining units lacking any morale boosting effects.

I'm using the Druid as a rainbow mage so the race wasn't exactly aimed at speed but it still hums along. Think I will have to find a better pretender but I'm not sure what. Lotsa points available as sloth3 is easy to manage. Something fast moving that can cast combat enhancing spells for CW's seems the way to go - maybe the Medusa.

The reason this pushes Pangaea towards order is that what with spending all the gold on Centaurs you don't have any over for Pan so you may as well take order and get more centaurs. I did fine with turmoil in my first test its just that Centaurs go with order and Centaurs rock. Satyr Hopilites on the other hand work well with turmoil (cheap on gps leaving gold over for Pan) but they are not very good so even playing turmoil I used Centaurs.

So I have a new favourite Dom2 unit - Centaur Warriors. Previously I couldn't understand why you would play order with Pangaea now I'll play whatever it takes to get me more Centaurs.

I still haven't decided for sure on the Sacred White Centaurs. While they look good I prefer the easy to use and much cheaper Centaur Warrior. The White Centaur costs 30 more gold and requires you to spend lots of points on bless effects for it to be meaningfully better than the CW. Still I'm sure you could do major damage with them so I'm not ruling them out.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

The satyr hoplites, centaurs, and minotaurs are all good troops. And yes, all draw Pangaea towards a military-based/order game rather than a turmoil based magic-maenad game.


The 350 gold cost of Pan's is hard to justify even with the improved magics (over Dom1) and potential maenad production.

IMHO.

[Gandalf Parker]

Maybe Pangaea maenad is not a winning nation but its a definate force for change. Im in short-fast game where I pinched between Rlyeh and Ermor right off the bat. I figured Id be dead by turn 10. Rlyeh responded to my offer for a NonAgg Pact for awhile (turned me down but at least it was an answer). When I asked Ermor I got no response.

Fine, Im going out and I know who to throw myself against. I put everything into sneaks and sent everyone forth. Even my pretender who was Lord of the Wild.

The tactics were to strike a province, crank taxes to 200%, purchase scouts and some defense, everyone move on. Ive Lasted into late game this way.

Whats really fun is that pan and Lord of the Hunt only need to walk around. They toss maenads as they go. The maenads attack the province and my pretender and pans are never even seen. Eventually Ermor had to start keeping armies in his back provinces and raise his defences in all of them.

It was a fun new discovery very different than my usual use of them as assassins. Still not worth the cost for it to be a main tactic but definetly on the list titled "time for change of tactics"

Gandalf Parker

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
A while back Jasper commented that having tested Pangaea he came back with the view that the order Version was clearly better than the luck Version and I couldn't understand this as it means no Maenads. Having tested Pangaea I think I know why Japser came to this view - Centaurs Warrriors.

That's part of it. Other factors are the expense of Pan, and especially the greatly reduced income. Playing Turmoil 3 Pangaea, I find I don't really have enough gold to take much advantage of Maeneds -- nor much else. Order 3 lets you take advantage of the 120 free points from Misfortune and afford Pan.

[Centaur Warriors]
All Pangaeas troops recover from afflictions. It's pretty easy to get a sizeable contingent of 2 or even 3 star troops, although the Satyr Hoplites are now significantly less survivable with 12 protection.

And yes, the CWs kick ***.

I'm using the Druid as a rainbow mage so the race wasn't exactly aimed at speed but it still hums along. Think I will have to find a better pretender but I'm not sure what. Lotsa points available as sloth3 is easy to manage. Something fast moving that can cast combat enhancing spells for CW's seems the way to go - maybe the Medusa.

I generally don't like to take Sloth as Pangaea, as it's nice to have resources for Hoplites and Minotaurs. This may just be a habit left over from the CW-less Dom1... Perhaps Growth would be better.

Medusa can give a relatively fast start, as with a bit of care she can reliably take provinces by herself w/ independents at 5 or 6.

The reason this pushes Pangaea towards order is that what with spending all the gold on Centaurs you don't have any over for Pan so you may as well take order and get more centaurs. I did fine with turmoil in my first test its just that Centaurs go with order and Centaurs rock. Satyr Hopilites on the other hand work well with turmoil (cheap on gps leaving gold over for Pan) but they are not very good so even playing turmoil I used Centaurs.

I find I'm always short of gold with Pangaea on Turmoil. Hoplites IMHO are better than you suggest, although significantly less effective than in Dom 1.

So I have a new favourite Dom2 unit - Centaur Warriors. Previously I couldn't understand why you would play order with Pangaea now I'll play whatever it takes to get me more Centaurs.

Order/Misfortune gets you 50% more income, which will give you more of _anything_. IMHO Turmoil is crippling -- even for Pangaea, which benefits from it more than anyone else except Ermor.

I still haven't decided for sure on the Sacred White Centaurs. While they look good I prefer the easy to use and much cheaper Centaur Warrior. The White Centaur costs 30 more gold and requires you to spend lots of points on bless effects for it to be meaningfully better than the CW. Still I'm sure you could do major damage with them so I'm not ruling them out.

I like the White Centaurs. It's a bit of a longer term investment, but I generally expect my centaurs to Last long enough to see it. I've been using them with Earth 9, as the extra protection combined with their Berserk makes them quite surviveable. Water 9 might be better, although I'm not really a big dragon fan.

[ December 24, 2003, 12:40: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by apoger:
The satyr hoplites, centaurs, and minotaurs are all good troops. And yes, all draw Pangaea towards a military-based/order game rather than a turmoil based magic-maenad game.


The 350 gold cost of Pan's is hard to justify even with the improved magics (over Dom1) and potential maenad production.

IMHO.

I still think this is because Misfortune is free points if you have Order (very little risk), and Turmoil/Luck doesn't work like it should.

But there's no question that Panii are still very very expensive for their magical skills. Given that Pangaea was widely considered weak in Dom I, I don't see why Panii couldn't have gotten the magic improvement at the same cost, or split into a Pan (200 or so for the Dom I magic skills, maybe 1-2 less maenads per turn) and a Pan Elder (Dom II stats and cost, maybe capitol only).

[Jasper]

If you're taking full advantage of the Maeneds the Pan aren't such a bad deal, especially as they're fairly robust and stealthy. Of course, they're not really a good deal either...

The problem is that taking full advantage means you lose about 1/3 of your income essentially in return for more random events, of about neutral net value.

[Keir Maxwell]

Here is where I'm at with the design:

Mother of Lions, nature3, dom5
order3, prod1, growth3, misfortune3, magic3
Wizards Tower

Could be a good race for players new to dom as its got narrow magic (earth, nature) a useful starting spell (Panic) that can be easily cast in the first battles (pretender) and boosted (Eagle Eyes). Add in powerful, fast, stealthy troops in the Centaur Warriors with good leaders in your Dryads, Centaur Heirophants, and a Pan per major army after the first - commanded by your pretender.

I stay away from all the strat move 1 units. For resource heavy troops the Centaur Cataphracts have strat move 2 and do a good job in the center. Early on the only unit I build is Centaur Warriors. Stick the free Satyrs on hold and attack in the middle and set the Centaurs loose on indies - there is lots of different tactics to try with the Centaurs and surrounding and destroying ai armies is a breeze. I really like the speed, both tactical and strategic, of this race.

The Mother of Lions is cheap, decent precision (13), can cast Panic, gets free lions every battle and has a decent base dominion - 3. You could go for a more costly pretender and reduce the extravegent scales but seeing as the Mother works really well why bother?

Magic3 makes Dryads good researchers curing one of Pangaea's major weaknesses and the lure of Mass Protection is overwhelming. Centaur Warriors will be ~17 prot with Mass Protection and the Cataphracts will be up around ~22. Must get time for a play tonight so I can get far enough to try it out.

I patrol on the first turn setting taxes to 150% (I'm cautious) and do a bit of other patrolling for extra gold when there is troops who don't need to move off that turn.

I find this race a pleasure to play. Frustration value is very low (as long as you check to see if you are moving or sneaking everytime!) and if you set your Centaur Heirophants on stay behind troops you don't have an archery phase speeding up the battle replays - which are pretty fast anyway what with the Centaur Warriors.

Merry Xmas

Keir

[ December 25, 2003, 07:17: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Keir Maxwell]

I do not think the Pan are weak. I'm using one per army with my order race. Currently its turn 26 and I have three large armies with Pan commanding them, one has 12 maenads, one 19, one 24. The Maenads are placed at the front middle on attack closest and take steady casulties but they are still kept up to strength. As the Pan are mostly outside of my weak dominion my order is not harming them nor would having turmoil help them much.

I have conquered a powerful Pythium and I'm now beating on Marignon with the help of C'tis so I've done alot of fighting.

A Pan cost 23gps a turn to upkeep and churn out more than enough maenads to make up for this - especially as maenads have no upkeep and appear right where you need them.

I like Pan - lots. I'm playing order and maybe right now thats one of the best ways to use Pan as it makes them affordable and if you are using them actively they are not inside you dominion anyway. So do you have to play turmoil to make good use of Pan? I think not.

I think we can throw away Dom1 assessments of Pangaea's stregnth based on my experiance. powerful, forgiving, militarily flexible - just make sure you don't sneak when you mean mean to move.

Cheers

Keir