Wishlist: Suppression: HMGs verses Artillery and Infantry

[Cross]

My concern is that HMG area fire (Z-fire) is much too effective.

For suppression, HMGs are 7 times more effective than infantry, and somewhere between 3.5 and 9 times more effective than artillery, depending on if you look at one turn or the potential by available ammo.

Comparing the ability to suppress

120 points buys:

6 Infantry sections
or
4 Medium Artillery guns
or
6 HMG units (12 HMGs)

6 Infantry sections
Ammo: 6x160=960
Z-fire uses 2 ammo (1 infantry section), total hexes suppressed:.........2
1 turn (6 infantry sections with 6 attacks) total hexes suppressed:......72
All ammo (6 infantry sections) total hexes suppressed:......................960

4 Medium Artillery guns
Ammo: 4x30=120
Z-fire or indirect fire uses 1 ammo (one gun), total hexes suppressed:..7
1 turn (4 guns with 5 attacks) total hexes suppressed:.......................140
All ammo (4 guns) total hexes suppressed:....................................... 840

6 HMG units (12 HMGs)
Ammo: 12x90=1080
Z-fire uses 2 ammo (1 unit, 2 HMGs) total hexes suppressed:..............14
1 turn (6 HMG units with 6 attacks) total hexes suppressed:................504
All ammo (6 HMG units) total hexes suppressed:................................7,560

Some observations
Every time you z-fire with a HMG unit of 2 HMGs, you use 2 ammo, and get 2 z-fire attacks, and each attack affects 7 hexes, for a total of 14 affected. Other units, like infantry, use 2 ammo for 2 z-fire attacks, and each attack affects only 1 hex, for a total of 2 hexes affected.

In ONE turn, 6 HMG units have the ability to suppress almost as many hexes as a troop of medium artillery using their ENTIRE ammo supply!

If a unit uses all their ammo on z-fire, a HMG section costing 20 points can z-fire into 1,260 hexes. An infantry section costing 20 points, using rifles and LMG, can only z-fire into 160 hexes. An artillery gun costing 30 points can fire into/suppress 210 hexes.

Fire power: Infantry verses HMGs
Let’s compare the fire power of an infantry section to the fire power of 2 HMGs:

A 10 man infantry section with 8 rifles and 1 LMG should be able to fire about 660 rpm. This allows for a 500 rpm LMG and 20 rpm per rifle (The ‘mad minute’ was a 15-30 rpm of aimed fire).

Two HMGs would be able to fire 900-2400 rpm, depending on the MGs.

Worst case scenario, two HMGs could fire 4 times the rounds of an infantry section (but it may only be 50% more) giving them 1.5 to 4 times the suppressive ability? In SP HMGs can suppress 7 times that of an infantry section.

Instant Artillery
Mass z-fire of area weapons, like HMGs, gives you instant artillery. You can immediately cause mass suppression in large areas of the map with no 2-3 turn plot wait time and relatively unlimited ammo.

Some players have figured this out, and the battlefield is now often subject to endless z-fire during the replays.

10% Artillery Limit
I think the game developers have done an excellent job of making artillery balanced and challenging. In fact the 10% artillery limit - that most PBEM players still insist on - has long been redundant.

I say buy as much artillery as you like, it’s expensive, you have to wait 2-3 turns, and not that effective unless you have a LOS FOO (who is also expensive).

The new PBEM limit should be HMGs. Either limit HMGs to 2% of the total force, or allow them to only fire 1 or 2 z-fires per turn.

Concluding Thoughts
I understand that HMGs are powerful weapons, changing the nature of warfare in WWI and all that. But shouldn’t the greatest suppressive power be artillery, second HMGs and lastly infantry sections? And wasn’t the real danger of HMGs ‘direct fire’? HMGs were deadly if you were caught in the open, but artillery should be more dangerous and suppressive than HMGs if you are unseen or have ‘gone to ground’.

Possible Solutions
Reduce double HMGs z-fire area from 14 hexes to 7. This would still be 3.5 times what an infantry section is capable of, which is about right; and about equal to artillery. Though, artillery will still be more expensive, have a slower rate of fire, and far less ammo. But what to do about single HMGs?

Another idea would be to give HMGs a huge ammo penalty for firing z-fire; perhaps using 4 to 6 ammo per z-fire.

Anyone have any other thoughts or ideas?



---

Cross

[Ts4EVER]

I seem to remember that many "house rules" say "no z fire at all".

[Imp]

Your comment about HMGs made me look not like you to get things wrong.

1) All weapons regardless of type use one ammo per fire.
2) Hexes effected per fire is the max assumes wildly inacuarte, double MMG for instance normaly hit same or adjacent hexes for 7-10 effected.
3) Infantry can effect up to 3 hexes if in range & have 3 Z fire capable weapons, assuming 4th is grenade so could Z fire with 4 weapons adjacent.
4) Double HMG therefore can effect 2X7 overlaping hexes & an arty piece 1x7.
Both can also effect one more hex if in rifle range.

They seem to work about right in my book get the odd map where MMGs are worth their weight in gold stopping you cold. Luckily you can guess there positions most times & as they are crewed weapons tend not to be happy campers when arty hits them.
If people are abusing add a house rule realistic numbers, depending on formation/nation thats a max of 1-3 per company in most cases. Thats singles if you want doubles then buy so number of MGs is correct. Cheaper than 2 singles but less flexible & easier to spot & hit.

[Cross]

Hi John,

1) You are right. One ammo per fire, not sure what made me think 2 ammo for three fires? I adjusted my hex totals in the op.

But this still means HMG/MMGs (tri-pod mounted) can suppress 9 times the number of hexes than artillery costing the same amount!

2) Hexes affected per fire is the max for infantry, artillery and HMGs, and are wildly inaccurate for all three, so how's this relevant?

If a HMG hits the same or adjacent hex in their second fire, the fire still affects 7 hexes each time, so 14 hexes are still effected. If one hex is affected twice, any unit in that hex may suffer double suppression.

3) Infantry with rifle-grenades may fire z-fire at range 3, and HMGs and artillery with rifles may also fire additional z-fire, but this is irrelevant to my point.

4) Double HMGs can effect 14 hexes and arty 7 hexes.

Yet arty only gets about 120 ammo (for 120 points) but HMGs get 1,080 ammo!


Yes you can guess HMG locations and hit them with artillery, but HMG locations are far harder to spot and eliminate than arty guns. The only exception could be that HMGs may be closer to the front than artillery. Don't you agree?

If we went with your limit of say 2 MGs per company in a 2500 point game, I would probably have about 10MGs (costing about 100 points) and I could spend 250 points (10%) on 8 medium guns.

During the battle:
My 10 MGs could suppress 6,300 hexes.
My 8 guns could suppress 1,680 hexes, and my arty cost 2.5 times as much as the HMGs. Which is my point...

Do you really think HMGs should cause tons more suppression than artillery, and cost far less?

regards,
Cross

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER

I seem to remember that many "house rules" say "no z fire at all".

Yes, I can understand why some have resorted to this.

I think there's a legitimate place for z-fire, so I'd prefer to limit it in some way.

Perhaps another option would be to allow only 1 or 2 z-fires per unit per turn. Better that this was coded into the game, but a pre-battle agreement could suffice.

cheers,
Cross

[RERomine]

To a certain extent, I agree with you Cross. Using a 1-gun MG-34 team as an example, they have 90 ammo points. The question is how many rounds does an ammo point equate to. Given a 3-man team, I'm going to take a SWAG at 3,600 rounds, which is probably high given they the machine gun, tripod and other personal arms and equipment to carry. For the machine gun ammo alone, that gives us over just 200lbs. The math of 3,600 rounds/90 ammo points gives us 40 rounds per ammo point. Assuming the rounds distribute evenly between the target hex and adjacent hexes that gives us 5-6 rounds per hex. In just one shot, it is questionable how much suppression would be caused by 5-6 unaimed rounds. There is an intangible factor to consider, however. Is the mere sound of an machine gun firing cause suppression? More than likely, yes. The US Army had a training film about the MG-42 during WWII because of its reputation. Soldiers hear machine guns firing and they may go to ground first and then try to find out if it is firing at them. This is the equivalent of suppression.

If anything, suppression and damage from a machine gun or any direct fire small arms weapon would likely occur down range from the target. This would be more of a case at close range, when gravity and wind resistance hasn't had much time to impact the flight of the round. Close to the firing weapon, the bullet trajectory is relatively flat. If a machine gun fires at a target at 200m, more than likely rounds that don't hit home will proceed hundreds of meters further before they actually hit the ground and will certainly be traveling fast enough to kill. To fire at longer ranges, you must elevate the barrel to put rounds on targets so at 1000m, more than likely the only hex that would be impacted is the target hex. Now, the short range impact on down range targets certainly would be affected by terrain. Firing down a hill at someone at the base would keep rounds from going beyond the target hex, where firing from the bottom of a hill at a unit up top would send the bullets into the air. Certainly a difficult programming proposition.

With respect to the artillery and machine guns, the apples and oranges comparison comes to mind. If both were intended to just cause suppression, you might be correct. Artillery and other indirect fire weapons can do much more. All types are capable if killing open topped armored vehicles. This is unlikely to occur with a machine gun unless it has an elevation advantage. With a large enough artillery round, it make even destroy a closed top armored vehicle. This can all be done in relative safety from a distance and behind a hill. Some might even have AP or HEAT rounds, giving them the ability to engage armor directly. All of these reason are why artillery costs more than machine guns. In this comparison between artillery and machine guns, my experience has had artillery more likely to damage/destroy HMG teams than HMG teams damaging/destroying artillery units.

Back to the concept of suppression, did you actually run tests to determine how much suppression was caused? Based on the math, there is no doubt that a HMG team can impact more hexes with its standard ammunition payload, but what about the difference in warhead size? Without tests, there is no conclusive way to tell what the true difference really is.

[Imp]

The simple answer is if probably if someone abuses it dont play them again., if they feilded loads of size zero units or other similar silly tactics you probably wouldnt.

Picking nits & sowing discord.

Double Mgs should be compared to their conterpart, double mortars probably 80mm the closest.
MG probably costs about 2/3rds 3/4s the mortars price.
Similar rates of fire Mortar probably has the edge on kill & range. It can fire anywhere within range with planing rather than restricted Z fire hexes. Can fire smoke (thats worth a lot) & is more effective in cover terrain as bigger warhead.
Its slower & has less ammo.

I fire mortars/arty with one goal only realy & thats suppresion any damage caused is a bonus.
MGs I fire generaly to damage but preferably at a target with an adjacent one, covering open ground very effective or vs that pesky ATG.
That said if I Z fire anything I look to my MGs first but only if needed as I think the arty missed or whatever.
What I am trying to say is most players I have come across dont Z fire them every turn they use z fire sensibly. That said in a flexible system like this there will always be those that abuse it but most people use the tools correctly.

[RERomine]

Here are some test results related to the current discussion.

First, the parameters of the test. I tested using a 1-gun MG-34 HMG team and a 10.5cm K331(f) howitzer. My firing nation was the Germans in June, 1944. American troops obliged by presenting a mass target at 750m. One squad was in every hex within 150m of target center. Three test cases were used: Direct Fire, Z Fire, Indirect Fire (10.5cm howitzer only). A test was run by taking one shot and the suppression of each of the American units in the seven impacted hexes was check. The suppression of all units is totaled. Each test was run 5 times and an average of the total suppression is generated. Finally, the average suppression of each unit in the impact zone is listed. The number of casualties generated the five tests is also listed. In the indirect fire test, only one round was fired. This was accomplished by firing off all but one round before calling the indirect fire in.

Direct Fire

10.5cm Howitzer: 53 Tot Sup Pts - 7.57 Sup/Sqd - 3 Casualties
MG-34: 38.6 Tot Sup Pts - 5.51 Sup/Sqd - 1 Casualty

Z Fire

10.5cm Howitzer: 21.6 Tot Sup Pts - 3.09 Sup/Sqd - 0 Casualties
MG-34: 17.8 Tot Sup Pts - 2.54 Sup/Sqd - 0 Casualties

Indirect Fire

10.5cm Howitzer: 50.8 Tot Sup Pts - 7.26 Sup/Sqd - 0 Casualties

My understanding was the root comparison was between machine Z Fire vs Artillery Indirect Fire. In this case, one artillery round produced 2.85 points of suppression for each point produced by an MG-34 HMG ammo point expended.

Now for some more math:

MG-34 HMG: 17.8 Tot Sup Pts * 90 Ammo Pts = 1602 Suppression for ALL Ammo
10.5cm Howitzer: 50.8 Tot Sup Pts * 30 Rounds = 1524 Suppression for ALL Rounds

MG-34 HMG: 1602 Sup for Ammo/17 Purchase Pts = 94.24 Sup/Purchase Pt
10.5cm Howitzer: 1524 Sup for Ammo/22 Purchase Pts = 69.27 Sup/Purchase Pt

With this information, it can be shown that the machine gun is worth more in suppression than the howitzer is, if they fire all of their ammunition. The caveat is the howitzer can achieve their max suppression with indirect fire faster than the machine gun can using Z Fire. In this case, the howitzer has 10 turns of ammo and the machine gun has 15 turns. There are certain delays that have to be taken into account, but they cut both ways. Artillery has the FO delay waiting for rounds to hit, where as the machine gun has to wait for a target to get into range(either physical range or where Z Fire can be used).

I'm not sure that imbalance is as great as first indications seemed to imply. You get more suppression points from the machine gun for points spent, but inflict more casualties with artillery. At least that is how it seems from this abbreviated test. Without a doubt, the howitzer has the ability to kill medium closed topped AFVs when an HMG can't. Another factor is the target's ability to shed suppression. The quicker suppression can be inflicted on a target, the more likely it will persist into next turn. The howitzer has the edge here as well.

Overall, in my opinion, if they are used as intended both are cost effective. Grazing fire from a machine gun is one thing they can do. Suppressing fire from artillery is one they can do as well. But both have other different capabilities that don't really overlap and it is difficult to properly compare those aspects.

[Cross]

Hi Ray,

I agree that attempting to compare HMGs with artillery is ‘apples and oranges’.

I will run a few tests of my own, and see what I come up with.


John,

You seem to support the status-quo, but make a couple of interesting remarks:

"The simple answer is if probably if someone abuses it dont play them again."

What is the abuse of z-fire? You appear to answer this question in the following statement:

"What I am trying to say is most players I have come across dont Z fire them every turn they use z fire sensibly."

Why is z-firing a MG every turn not sensible?

What I’m saying is, that if HMG z-fire is correct then how can it be abused?

Do we accuse players of abusing artillery when they fire it every turn? Why not?

In the end, does the game ‘feel right’? When we have to fabricate agreements not to overuse (abuse) a weapon, that’s about a big as sign as you are going to get that something is out of kilter.


regards,
Cross

[Imp]

Simon

You seemed to imply people are overusing MGs in Z fire & perhaps buying in bulk specifically for that purpose, abuse is therefore if it offends your sensibilitys.

My current games I have 8 & 9 MGs (2 & 3 per Co) & I would estimate Z fire use by them per turn at 1-2 the others are either moving to position or firing at targets when of course area suppresion applies.

As said have had maps where I have been locked down by heavy AA & MG use representitive of No Mans Land in WW1.
Some people Z fire a lot including squads which does spoil attacks & slow the game down. However once you realise the intel gained is invaluable so feints etc are the order of the day & you have confirmed arty targets. Certainly in a modern game with abundant transport it normaly does the reciever far more good than the firer in my view on most terrain.

As you said I am happy with how they work & costs are good enough. perhaps if you wanted a change & it was possible which I doubt MGs should use 2 ammo when Z firing to represent heavy use beating the area.