Secondary Tech Levels (long)

[Phoenix-D]

I've been trying to get high-equipment to need different techs than lower ones. Say I have 4 ships: Escort, Light Cruiser, Battleship, Dreadnaught. They're researched using Generic Ship Construction

Now, I want to BS and DN to require Construction I to build, but the ES and LC nothing other than their tech level. SE4 won't let you do what I want- that is, don't allow you to research Generic Ship Construction 3 until you've researched Construction I. I've experimented with breaking Generic Ship Construction up into two seperate areas, but when you're doing this for an entire tech tree it gets pretty messy.

Then I hit on something. The ES and LC require Generic Ship Construction 1, and 2, but I changed the BB and DN to require Construction 1 AND Generic Ship construction 3/4.

The problem is, SE4 still lets you research Generic Ship Construction 3/4, you just don't get anything until you research Construction I. So to the user, it can appear that Battleships and Dreadnaughts require Construction I.. then they try that next game and nothing happens until they research Generic Ship Construction II/III.

I'm calling these areas "Secondary Tech Areas" because unlike normal SE4 tech areas, they don't open new tech areas, and alone they don't do you any good.

Long-winded explanation aside, what do you think about using these? Too complicated? Better way around it? Just right? I've been thinking of making a "tech manual" that makes all these relationships clear, as well.

Phoenix-D

[Val]

Sounds good to me, and I think people that have played similar games should have no trouble with that idea - it's the same way you won't get your carriers until you research fighters, to someone who has researched the entire ship con branch and then researches fighters level 1 and then they get carriers might make them think that is all they need (as in your example).

Anyway, I am doing a similar thing for the weapons in the B5 Mod with letting people research the specific weapon tech fields (Plasma Weapons) and then general fields (Light, Medium, Rapid Fire, Point-Defense, Accelerated) in some cases a really complex device may require the research of several fields to even get access to the correct techs before researching the weapon.

[Suicide Junkie]

In P&N, that kind of multi-requirement guessing game is handled by having a cheaper component available when you've only got one of the two requirements. It is also quite clear as to what you need, most of the time.

You want "armored engines"? get propulsion and get armor.
Biocrystal armor? Crystalline and organic tech.

Battlemoons take ship and base construction, but there are no empty levels, you'll still get a better ship/base hull no matter what.

quote:

---

The problem is, SE4 still lets you research Generic Ship Construction 3/4, you just don't get anything until you research Construction I. So to the user, it can appear that Battleships and Dreadnaughts require Construction I.. then they try that next game and nothing happens until they research Generic Ship Construction II/III.

---

If there is absolutely nothing to gain from researching "Generic ship con" level 3 until "construction" level 1 is researched, then I'd suggest:
- Make Generic Ship Con stop at level 2
- have Construction open up a new tech area, "Large Generic Ship Construction"

If there is nothing to tie levels 1&2 to 3&4, you hight as well split them up and save confusion.

In the other hand, you could try placing a dummy hull size "Prototype Battleship" which is almost useless as a ship, and whose description indicates that you require advances in construction techniques in order to actually build one.
Something like Triple Maintenance would be good to use as part of the hull, which would simulate the prototype nature. None of the replacement parts can be mass produced yet.

[Baron Munchausen]

Yes, that seems to be the only way to make this concept work in SE. I've considered doing this with phased-shields and some other technologies. As with all complicated mods the downside is that it makes AI editing more tedious at best, and might create a situation that confuses the AI and puts it at a disadvantage. I've been 'distributing' Stellar Manipulation techs to other fields, for example, so you have to pursue many branches of research to get them all instead of just one 'super powers' tech field. Then I have to go an edit all the AI files so they get around to all those fields sooner or later.. ugh.

For ship construction, I'd put the break at cruisers or battle cruisers and name the new field 'capital ship construction'. You might include some larger and heavier armor in that field as well. Then you might have some races that would only research standard ships up to cruisers and not go any further with standard ships. They might switch to carriers. (The 'Colonials' in the Battlestar Galactica universe, for example).

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Phoenix-D]

"Then you might have some races that would only research standard ships up to cruisers and not go any further with standard ships."

Oh, I've already done that. That's why I didn't want to split it any further. It's already split into Escorts, Cruisers, Capital Ships, and Starships. So before when I had split tech, I had "Advanced Capital Ship Construction". I've managed to shorten it a bit, but I've already got a LOT of tech areas. Ah well.

I thint the prototype idea will work for the components though, thanks. SE4 doesn't do replacement of obselte hulls, so I don't want to do that on hulls.. too much clutter. The level I hulls are already bad enough.

As an example, I've got an improvement tech for the Meson BLaster and (new weapon) Havoc Beam. It's called Meson Disintigrators. To get Meson BLaster IV-VI, you have to research this first. You can still research up the tech, but it won't do you much good.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

"As with all complicated mods the downside is that it makes AI editing more tedious at best, and might create a situation that confuses the AI and puts it at a disadvantage"

I'm pretty much stuck with having to re-write the AI anyway, so that's not a *huge* change..

Phoenix-D