OT: How fast is light speed in SE4 terms? -> Maximum possible speed? -> insanity

geoschmo · #1 October 22nd, 2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK in another thread:
Well, again, your imagination of SE4's tech levels is simply much higher than mine. For example, I don't see SE4 as starting with FTL drives. Light takes EIGHT MINUTES to get from the Sun to the Earth. An SE4 turn is about a month. So, light speed in SE4 would be oh, probably well over 1000, not 6 (ion engine speed in SE4).

Totally off topic Math Fun.

Question: How fast is light speed in SE4 terms?

To calculate the speed of light in SE4 terms, we need some way to convert between the two systems. Initially I was assuming that 1 A.U. was 3 SE4 sectors, based on the orbital position of Earth being the third planet from Sol. Using this as a calculation, I come up with the speed of light in SE4 terms as being 16,200 sectors per turn (month).

There is an obvious problem with this assumption however. If we assume that the Earth is three sectors from the sun, then the most distant planet from it's star is only 2 A.U. away. 2 A.U. is just outside the orbit of Mars, while Pluto is around 40 A.U.. Either the Solar system is extraordinarily large, or the system maps in SE4 are an abstract representation, and not drawn to scale. I think the second is more likely.

I have a reasonable hypothesis however. Ship drives in SE4 are obviously affected in some way by the proximity to the Star at the center of the system. This results in slower speeds relative light in the inner parts of the system than in the outer parts. This would make a calculation of light speed difficult, but not impossible.

If we assume the distance across a star system is 80 A.U. (Distance from Sol to Pluto x 2), and we assume a ship travelling this distance across a star system, we can calculate the average speed of the ship relative to light, and thus be able to ignore the variations in speed in various parts of the system.

Known:
Distance from Sol to Pluto = approx 40 A.U.
Time for light to travel 1 A.U. = approx. 8 min

Assumption:
60 Earth minutes in an SE4 Hour
24 Earth Hours in an SE4 day

Calculations:
60 x 24 x 30 = 43,200 minutes per month
43,200 / 8 = 5,400 Number of A.U. Light travels in a month

5,400 / (40/6) = Light travels 810 sectors per month.

We can assume light speed to be constant in SE4, but remember, since ship speed varies in relation to light speed depending on how close to the center of the system you are, ship speed per month can only be given as an average, or an approximation. But, for a ship in SE4 terms to travel the speed of light it would have to be able to travel 810 sectors in a turn (month).

The key to understanding this is that a SE4 sector is not a fixed distance. A sector is smaller in terms of A.U. in the interior of the star system than at the edge. But over a distance of 810 sectors, the average distance of the sectors is such that the total distance is the same as the distance light travels in that amount of time.

So PvK, 1000 is high, but not too bad for a ballpark guess.

Geoschmo

[ October 24, 2002, 19:10: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

oleg · #2 October 22nd, 2002, 04:54 PM

Even though Earth is 3rd planet, one can argue that it is two, not three sectors away from Sol -
Mercury can be modeled as sitting on "top" of star. Thus you can rescale your calculations by 2/3

PvK · #3 October 22nd, 2002, 05:00 PM

Actually, you quoted me, not Fryon. I wasn't even addressing Fryon in that discussion, but Graeme Dice, who was saying that SE4 started out with faster-than-light drives (i.e., speed 6 would be greater than light).

This is an interesting academic question, but as long as there is no interstellar movement without instantaneous warp points, it's of course not practical at all, for gameplay reasons. SE4 maps and movement are hugely abstracted, and a ship that could move even 100 sectors per turn would er, change the gameplay quite a bit.

PvK

geoschmo · #4 October 22nd, 2002, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oleg:
Even though Earth is 3rd planet, one can argue that it is two, not three sectors away from Sol -
Mercury can be modeled as sitting on "top" of star. Thus you can rescale your calculations by 2/3

That is worth noting. It would affect any sort of calculation of the various distances for each sector. But doesn't affect my calculations for the speed of light in sectors. Since my calculations are based on the distance of Pluto to the Sun, and I am of course assuming that Pluto is 6 sectors from the Sun.

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK:
Actually, you quoted me, not Fryon. I wasn't even addressing Fryon in that discussion, but Graeme Dice, who was saying that SE4 started out with faster-than-light drives (i.e., speed 6 would be greater than light).

This is an interesting academic question, but as long as there is no interstellar movement without instantaneous warp points, it's of course not practical at all, for gameplay reasons. SE4 maps and movement are hugely abstracted, and a ship that could move even 100 sectors per turn would er, change the gameplay quite a bit.

PvK

Sory about the misquote. Fixed it.

Yes a ship that could move 100 sectors would affect the game play just a bit. Assuming of course that the warp points were still there. But a ship capable of 100, or even a 1000 for that matter, sectors per month movement would still take many years to travel between systems without the warp points.

Even Light speed aint all that fast on a galactic scale.

Geoschmo

Slick · #5 October 22nd, 2002, 05:31 PM

If you want the answer to these and similar questions, try reading "The Physics of Star Trek" - see link below. Be forewarned that most of the discussions in the book show that it is impossible to do all the things you see in Star Trek. Since the arguments are based only on the current knowledge of physics, I like to believe that there is lots of undiscovered physics out there that not only makes it possible, but makes it feasible. It's a pretty good read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...99854?v=glance

Slick

Spoo · #6 October 22nd, 2002, 08:44 PM

If you agree that you can't go faster than the speed of light (excepting warp points), light speed would be 30. After all, in a simultaneous game ships can't move any faster than 30 sectors/turn.

Suicide Junkie · #7 October 22nd, 2002, 09:12 PM

Quote:

If you agree that you can't go faster than the speed of light, light speed would be 30.

That just means light speed is at least 30. If lightspeed was higher, we'd still agree that SE4 ships aren't capable of going at the speed of light.

Andr�s · #8 October 23rd, 2002, 03:10 AM

why 30? Aint 255 the max allowed mov?

Suicide Junkie · #9 October 23rd, 2002, 03:22 AM

There are only 30 days in a simultaneous game month.
Ships can only move 30 in simultaneous games, no matter how mant MP they have.

If you are talking a modded sequential turn game, then the max would be at least 510 movement.

255 standard, plus 255 (or more) bonus movement, IIRC.

geoschmo · #10 October 23rd, 2002, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
why 30? Aint 255 the max allowed mov?

For turn based games I think you are right. But for simultaneous turn games the max a ship can move in any turn is 30 spaces. The reason for this is the way movement is calculated in simultaneous turn games. Each turn is divided into 30 days, and the total allowed movement of a ship is divided by 30. The result is the number of days between moves for each ship/fleet. But the maximum any ship/fleet will move in any one day is 1 space. So the result is a ship with more than 30 available movement will move one space per day until the end of the turn and the excess movement is wasted.

Geoschmo