Pretender Design

[Ctennyson]

I'm new. I admit it. I am going to give a short bit of info on me, and then move on. I've been playing TBS for years and years, including MoM, Civ-Civ III, MoO to 2, Alpha Centauri, and pretty much any of the others I could dredge up. Age of Wonders, you name it. I have been waiting years for someone to make something as good as MoM, and as deep, and finally, I found it.

I've been playing a few weeks now, single player, and I have tried SC's, Casters, middle grounds, all scales, bless effects, and pretty much everything in between. So, lets get to a few questions, and observations.

The SC is great for initial expansion, but after the first 15 turns, even in SP, seems to be...well, basically useless. That said, he's good for getting you into a potential winning situation, but frequently, I find he gets a vile and nasty affliction on turn 6-8 and thats game. I have tended toward the Nataraja, and Son of Niefel, for my SC, although the one time I used the Cyclops, I was very very impressed. The Cyclops, with his incredible early protection, didnt get afflicted, and later was able to cast all the great earth spells. Opinions on what other SC's are viable, SP and MP are certainly welcome, including why. Early game equipment, pendants of luck, amulets of antimagic, can also be added, although its generally the same every time.

Casters dont aid much in expansion, but DO seem to get you a serious research boost. I have used the Skratti, Crone, and Sage, as well as Pythiums Divine Emperor, and found each of them to be excellent at researching, and the Emperor and Crone to be awesome for casting, with the extra misc slots. Skratti was tough enough to aid in battle also, and fairly cheap. After my Research was high enough without the caster, he went out rainbow site searching, and this also worked well. much better site searching than with the SC. So, the tradeoff seems to be gold vs research + gems.

In MP, I imagine a Starcraft style pretender rush, of SC + gold + troops, would be very bad against your crone, or whatnot, but likewise, if they rush you, you could have a SC yourself, depending on their intel, so that might be a bad rush, also, if the opponent was ready for it.

Ok, And on the subject of the SC/Caster: Bog Mummy, Ghost King, possibly others, whats opinion of them? They cost a lot, 110 and 90 points, but both seem very durable and flexible. Of course, your scales will suffer, slightly, are they worth it? Initial expansion and later research? Ghost King to go with the army, and site search after each fight? Or, is the opinion more on dilution: Not enough of either the rainbow mage, or the SC. Jack of all Master of none?

I know a lot of people tend to really like their Pretender as an SC, I'd love to hear the whys, and wheres, and how many points is too many, in your own opinions. Also, specific information on which magic paths, and why are also valuable, even though most of us probably know which specific early combat spells each is going for.
Still overviews, like Death is great for research/conjuration but not so hot for SC, is helping someone, if not myself specifically.

Basically, in SP, you can win no matter what you do. I'll take this assumption for granted, and being as I have never played MP, I'll take my own opinions with a grain of salt.

[ February 16, 2004, 19:50: Message edited by: Ctennyson ]

[Norfleet]

There are several schools of thought to a pretender build: There's the "rainbow" build, which tends to revolve around having a pretender with modest rankings in many magic schools: This enhances his value as a researcher, his value as a site-searcher, and his value in casting a wide variety of spells, particularly if your nation has an otherwise poor selection of magics.

Then there's the "bless" build, in which a magic school is pumped up not for its value in casting anything at all, but for what blessing it provides.

And then there's the oddball build where a pretender's magic paths are chosen for the spells it allows him to cast in combat, and the personal secondary effects granted by those choices. An SC designed in this way can be a formidable warrior.

There are various ways of avoiding afflictions to an SC pretender: Picking an immortal or recuperating chassis will results in being able to recover from the occasionally acquired affliction. A nation with easy access to affliction healing, such as Arco with Priestesses, can also minimize the affliction problem. Later on in the game, SCs may return in force due to the fact that massing large armies generally is the equivalent of tacking a large Flames from the Sky or Murdering Winter bullseye on yourself.

I find that if you want to build a truly monstrous, all-game combat beast, you need to take into account the factors that make for the best fighters:
1. A good encumberance rating: A high-encumberance chassis will ultimately make for a very poor level of endurance in combat, since he will quickly become out of breath, and the amount of reinvigoration needed to keep him kicking solo in the late game can be steep. This can partially be offset by having mages casting Relief....as long as they aren't killed. 0 Encumberance, obviously, is ideal, because then you will never, ever get tired no matter how fast you go and how much you have to kill.

2. Many defensive attributes: Any attribute that comes with your SC chassis, such as Ethereal, Flying, etc, is one more thing you don't need an item or spell to grant you.

3. Many item slots: The more items you can wield, the larger the variety and potency of powers you can gain. Nonhumanoids tend to have a shorter career as a really beastly SC: A dragon, for instance, has only two misc slots and a head slot. Not much room for items.

[Ctennyson]

For item slots, on an SC, since that seems your focus here, do you value any slots higher than others? For example, the Nataraja gets 4 hand slots, and by proxy, more attacks, of course, also more encumbrance/fatigue, than for example, a Titan. Titan gets the additional misc slot, and misc items are definitely handy. Cavalry are missing boots, generally not my favorite item, but flying boots/earth boots/boots of stone are good, depending on build, also. Its obviously a series of tradeoffs, and it changes from race to race, I guess, depending on Arco priestesses, and the like.

I know the question is awfully broad. Its hard to pin down, though. I kinda feel its best to run an SC with ... softer troops, and a rainbow when your troops are, as the English say, dead 'ard.

I wonder about stuff like the Bog Mummy, though. Its tough, its got fair magic paths, but it isnt super tough, and it isnt super good at casting. I've tried the Vamp Queen, and she was ok, but nothing terribly thrilling. I've had more success with the GK than with anything else, regardless of race, but I am pretty much sick of him.

If you are having issues with finding out which items you would like to put on what kind of SC's to complement your unit, try looking at the MIQR located Here

As you see the Foot slot is regulated to one of four things for Supercombatants.

Boots of the Behemoth
Boots of Quickness
Flying Boots
Boots of the Messanger

I consider the Foot slot very important, if one of those three abilities (trample, quickness, flying, reinvigoration) is not inherent to the SC I try to fill it with what I consider more important.

Misc has a variety of uses and importance, but for me, the Misc slot is for an Antimagic Amulet and one other item (for most SC's). What the other item is, is usually regulated to whether or not the SC has access to Regeneration, Reinvigoration, Resistances (Rings), or Lucky.

[ February 17, 2004, 05:02: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Ctennyson]

Well, Zen, my point is sort of that not all Pretenders have 2 misc slots. Nataraja has 1, Divine Emperor has 4, Crone has 4, I am fairly sure I recall an SC with 3 misc, also, but heck if I remember which.

I have a pretty good general idea of which items go best on the pretenders, my biggest concern is creating the pretender in the first place. I dislike how some of em look, like the male Titan, so I dont like choosing those ones, and some of the ones I like, Female Titan, for example, seem to have much worse magical choices, depending on what I am trying to do. My biggest question is how everyone else values the slots themselves, not just what to put IN the slot. Would you rather have 4 hand slots and 1 misc, or 2 hands and 2 misc, no body, but 4 misc, or 1 body and 2 misc. Do you think the regular human form of the Sage is the best? Or prefer the Crones lack of a body but extra misc slots?

And I'd love input on the semi-caster/semi SC chars like Bog Mummy/Vamp Queen maybe even Skratti, how do you feel about them?

Originally posted by Ctennyson:
Well, Zen, my point is sort of that not all Pretenders have 2 misc slots. Nataraja has 1, Divine Emperor has 4, Crone has 4, I am fairly sure I recall an SC with 3 misc, also, but heck if I remember which.

If you can make a SC out of a Crone or a Divine Emperor, I'd love to see you try. Maybe the definition of a SC is what is missing here. The Natarajah has only 1, which is it's limiting factor.

I have a pretty good general idea of which items go best on the pretenders, my biggest concern is creating the pretender in the first place. I dislike how some of em look, like the male Titan, so I dont like choosing those ones, and some of the ones I like, Female Titan, for example, seem to have much worse magical choices, depending on what I am trying to do.

It's been said enough that the Great Mother falls into this aestheticlly displeasing choice. But in actuallity she is an incredible SC. Most of the Titans are very well suited to that role as well.

My biggest question is how everyone else values the slots themselves, not just what to put IN the slot. Would you rather have 4 hand slots and 1 misc, or 2 hands and 2 misc, no body, but 4 misc, or 1 body and 2 misc. Do you think the regular human form of the Sage is the best? Or prefer the Crones lack of a body but extra misc slots?

This is defined by what magics you have as much as what slots you have. The more you play the game the more you will fill in slots based on whatever lack of magic is availiable as well as the base gem/mage income to forge the items you need. I can't answer your question because it is far too broad to answer reasonably.

And I'd love input on the semi-caster/semi SC chars like Bog Mummy/Vamp Queen maybe even Skratti, how do you feel about them?

I'd consider the Vamp Queen to be a full fledged SC, the only reason she would ever seem to be a caster is if you had alot of points to use on her. A bog mummy makes a decent caster and a mediocre SC. His Immortality more fits him to Battlefield rocking spells in his domain. And the Skratti I don't particularly like. Though this is totally biased in my opinion since I don't play rainbows as they are in my mind, less competitive. I think on average I don't choose more than 3 Paths, and that is very rare and if I have the points to do it. It's much more common for me to pick a pretender that has 1 or 2 paths and either add a path or up the path point to where I need then spend my points on scales.

You might have input more to your playstyle by asking people who play alot of Rainbows and Heavy Point Pretenders.

[Ctennyson]

Well, I didnt actually say the Crone was an SC, but that aside, I know the question is super broad.

I did have the Divine Emperor with ungodly battlefield magic, after a couple of wishes, but once you start wishing, obviously the game is over, or next thing to it.

Skratti does have over 30 hp, decent prot, and 22 str 12 at 12 def, etc, so for 50 points, the Stats arent in the Titan arena, but they are WAY over lots of the other rainbows. The Skratti is as durable as most giants, which are fairly durable, and its paths are 10, seems like the best possible rainbow, highly durable. Of course, you only get to field it in an army where lots of other units are much tougher than it. The questions are certainly open to others also, including rainbow loving types.

For my part, I seem to like the hybrids more than anything, Ghost King and the like, tough with cheap paths, but the more I play, the more I seem to have order 3 - prod 3 and the less points that seem to go into the GK...which makes him much less useful as a caster/searcher, amd as an SC only, he's pretty lacking.

The game I am playing right now is with Atlantis and a Dagon, and he's been awesome, much like the Cyclops was when I used him. Again, though, beating the AI is sort of like beating a dead horse, it isnt like there are many strategies that can make you lose.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Ctennyson:
Well, Zen, my point is sort of that not all Pretenders have 2 misc slots. Nataraja has 1, Divine Emperor has 4, Crone has 4, I am fairly sure I recall an SC with 3 misc, also, but heck if I remember which.

While the Nataraja only has one miscellaneous slot, that is to my mind outweighed by the two extra hands, since you can get weapons and shields with an incredible range of modifiers. Unless you have very specialised needs for a miscellaneous slot, it is likely that you can find a sword or a shield that duplicates the effect (while also granting you a protection/defense bonus) - which still leaves you one slot ahead. If you go with the shields, it does make a rainbow armour pretty near mandatory, though, to gain some much needed reinvigoration.

The Nataraja with three shields and a faithful or dual-wielding Staves of Elemental Mastery (one of each type, making him impervious to all elements AND boosting elemental paths by +2) can make a most impressive caster in the mid-game to late-game, while still being able to play tank in the early game.

Probably my favourite for a 0 nation-point pretender strategy. Start as tank, end up as a super arch-mage.

[Ctennyson]

I really like the Nataraja as well, unfortunately its only available to 3 nations, and I don't particularly care for any of the 3. I can't stand Caelum, I hate Arco, and Tien Chi is ok, but nowhere near my favorite nation.

Some of the pretender to nation choices seem very random, to me, and unwarranted. Dracolich not in Ermor, but Green Dragon is? Cold Blooded Nagas in Vanheim's list? I'd love to mod which nations get which pretenders, too. Is it doable yet? I need a modding tutorial for this game.

[Psitticine]

I've had good success with the Vampire Queen and various forms of Lich. Their immortality makes them very good choices for battlefield pretenders. I tend to start them off in the back, working as spellcasters, but they can work very well when the enemy breaks my lines (especially as such enemies have usually become quite battered in the process.) In the early days of a game, I'll sometimes place them otherwise and have them use Hand of Death and other "contact" spells.

Their immortality means that even if they fall, every single troop they bring down first is a net gain. The free recruits the Vampire Queen brings in are just a bonus, IMO, albeit a nice one.