SuperVans!

Cheezeninja · #1 May 16th, 2004, 05:10 PM

well i got curious as to what a van would be like with maximized bless effects in all magic paths so i modded up the allfather to see what would happen. Turns out the game doesnt let you get 9 in more than 4 paths at once, when i tried to mod that in it kept changing my pretender into a generic archmage with no magic. Ok fine, i suppose i can settle for 9F 8A 9W 9E 8S 8D 9N 8B... this once. Anyway, it completely eliminates all challenge from the game, of course, but its fun for about 45 minutes. They eat up everything....of course.

Gandalf Parker · #2 May 16th, 2004, 05:36 PM

You can do that legally in a game. Or at least you can get closer than you might think. I havent tried to see how many 9's though I suspect 3 at least. I can get all 4's across the board with one or two 9's legally in almost any nation.

Cheezeninja · #3 May 16th, 2004, 07:17 PM

yeah... i was just curious to see what all 9's would be like, and then when i couldnt get that out of control i went for the next best thing. I bet thats possible...but would you really want to live with those scales?

Gandalf Parker · #4 May 16th, 2004, 07:49 PM

Its a strategy. Not an easy one but possible. You could also take very low dominion and try to stay outside of its affects.

But of course that is the total extreme. A medium of some sort would probably be easier to use. Some nations have some pretty extreme scales they can survive for awhile especially if they plan to stay outside of it most of the time.

Huzurdaddi · #5 May 16th, 2004, 10:10 PM

Just two level 9 blessings : water and fire make Vans almost invincible. They are (imo) really out of wack.

Yes it is possible to beat them. But they can conquer provinces at a frightening rate taking no losses what so ever.

They are the best bless unit IMO.

Stormbinder · #6 May 16th, 2004, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
Just two level 9 blessings : water and fire make Vans almost invincible. They are (imo) really out of wack.

Yes it is possible to beat them. But they can conquer provinces at a frightening rate taking no losses what so ever.

They are the best bless unit IMO.

It's extremely hard to hae lvl 9 water and lvl 9 fire with Vanheim. Have you actually tried to get it and see what sclaes and pretender you would have to use?

I think it is more feasable to have either water 9 or fire 9. If choose between these two I would probably go with water 9, because it would strongely benefit all sacred units, not only fighters. Although other people may prefer fire9.

BTW I've heard that any "flaming weapon" enchnatment (fire 9 blessing, flaming arrows, etc.) work as additional 8 AP damage weapon, so you can have up to 2 hits with every swing of your weapon. Is it indeed so?

Gandalf Parker · #7 May 17th, 2004, 12:26 AM

Vanheim isnt the best one for this apparently but its not impossible. Sure if you take all harsh scales and the Crone you can get 9/9/9/4 or a Crone with 9/8/4/4/4/4/4/4. Of course if you give up one of the 4's you could make that 8 a 9. Rotten scales yes but the idea is to play with maxxed blessings. Dom2 a balanced game and something has to give.

But even in moderation.... Take -3cold, -3luck and -3magic. Not bad if you dont plan to fight at home. Could even be defensive. That can get you 9/9/6 or 9/9/4/2 or 9/9/2/2/2/2 if you want to put her to work doing alittle searching. Alot will give you 9fire/9water like Ghost King or Manticore. Moloch will give you 9 fire, 9 water, and 5 somewhere else. Either the red or blue dragon will give 9fire/9water/4something. Throw in -1death and AllFather can give you 9fire/9water beside the 2 magics he starts off with. Also -1death will let the infamous VQ give 9fire/9water. With Phoenix you can even take back a scale point.

[ May 16, 2004, 23:29: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Stormbinder · #8 May 17th, 2004, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

But even in moderation.... Take -3cold, -3luck and -3magic. Not bad if you dont plan to fight at home. Could even be defensive. That can get you 9/9/6 or 9/9/4/2 or 9/9/2/2/2/2 if you want to put her to work doing alittle searching. Alot will give you 9fire/9water like Ghost King or Manticore. Moloch will give you 9 fire, 9 water, and 5 somewhere else. Either the red or blue dragon will give 9fire/9water/4something. Throw in -1death and AllFather can give you 9fire/9water beside the 2 magics he starts off with. Also -1death will let the infamous VQ give 9fire/9water. With Phoenix you can even take back a scale point.

Hmm interesting picture Gandelf.

I am playing Vans right now in my MP game, with Odin and 9 water blessing. I have water 9 air 3 death 3; order 3 sloth 3 cold 1 misfortune 3.

-3 magic for Vanheim? Ouch. IMHO their reseach sucks even with neutral scales, with -3 magic it would be virtually not existant. Sure, you'll be realying on rush and national units, but you have to have _some_ reseach.

IMHO sloth 3 would be significatly better than -3 magic in your picture, since production of Vans doesn't take many resourses anyway.

Also 3 Cold is kindof nasty (instead of 1 cold default) - vans armies require a lot gold to recruit and maintain, and -3 cold means -10% gold income, in addition to hurting not cold-resistant troops during the battle.

Since the supply for vans is not a problem (pigs) perhaps it would be better to take -2 Cold -2 Death instead of -3 Cold -1 Death?

On the other hand having 9 fire 9 water perhaps could put Vans troops on pair with best summoned troops. Just thinking about all these Vans and valkyeres, with 9 water quickness and protection and 9 fire blessing can put a smile on the face...

And you still have very good flying SC with such setup. So do you think it would be worth it in MP game or is it too extreme?

[ May 17, 2004, 00:35: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

PvK · #9 May 17th, 2004, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
...
BTW I've heard that any "flaming weapon" enchnatment (fire 9 blessing, flaming arrows, etc.) work as additional 8 AP damage weapon, so you can have up to 2 hits with every swing of your weapon. Is it indeed so?

Well it is an 8 damage effect when you have flaming weapons from blessings, but I don't know exactly how that applies with regards to number of attacks, number of targets, effects of armor, etc.

Speaking of Vans, I saw one (unequipped non-prophet Vanherse) in a deathmatch with an unequipped Vampire Queen yesterday. The Van only lost by retreating first. I think it could have gone either way. The (uninjured) VQ was then defeated during the next round in one turn by the imps of a Moloch... bye bye VQ.

PvK

[ May 17, 2004, 00:49: Message edited by: PvK ]

Gandalf Parker · #10 May 17th, 2004, 02:04 AM

I think going for maximum bless is a good strategy in a game where no one is expecting anything extreme. Play with the scales but the idea is that you are going to put all your reliance in blessed troops. The fact that Van can move them on someone as a total surprise would be interesting also.

If you take low dominion you should be able to operate outside of your scale effects. Especially with the checkerboard capability of Van. Even if your scales lowers your money, magic, fighting ability; you might be able to work around that. Fight outside your dominion area. Take a high-population province and tax it high but dont let your dominion climb there. Take a province for sages and use it for research.

This strategy is probably best used as a "secret weapon" for when you are playing people who think they know you and how you play.

Gandalf Parker
--
If you cant beat 'em, join 'em.
If you cant beat em or join em,
then at least try to surprise them.