Helheim - feedback required

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
They have no cheap researcher or level 3 priest, and their infantry isn't spectacular.

Helheim has einheres, doesn't it? That's all the infantry you'll ever need.

Without totally killing my scales, I think I came up with a very good jack-of-all trades pretender.

With only 4 astral, you can't use him against any nation with astral mages. You also only have order 1, which will severely limit the amount of troops you can have. Death 4 only gives you a single point boost over your best death mages, which isn't that great of a deal.

My GK managed to take out 4 hydras, a situation I'm not sure the supposedly superior Allfather would have managed well.

The allfather would have done just as well, since hydras are not particularly strong troops. It only takes a dozen militia to kill a single hydra.

[Blitz]

With only 4 astral, you can't use him against any nation with astral mages. You also only have order 1, which will severely limit the amount of troops you can have. Death 4 only gives you a single point boost over your best death mages, which isn't that great of a deal.

I'm aware of these points. I was pretty sure someone would make a similar comment, which is why I asked for solutions from people with that criticism. I'll ask you directly Graeme... what solutions for global enchantments and afflictions can you provide with a less-expensive avatar?

As for the death path, I do want Soul Vortex, so tier 3 is important. I took the extra point for a few reasons. Firstly, it meant I could cast Lichcraft and Call Wraith Lord without using two boost items. Secondly, It allows the casting of Well Of Misery and Legion of Wights with two boost items. I felt this was worth 24 points over Death 3. My alternatives were Water 3, an 80 point castle, or an upgrade to dominion 7. Do you still feel differently? Where would you spend those points?

The allfather would have done just as well, since hydras are not particularly strong troops. It only takes a dozen militia to kill a single hydra.

At the time, I wouldn't have had a poison resistance item as I had not found any nature mages... and none of my affordable Allfather chassis had any nature magic at all. I would not have sent a naked Allfather into that battle... a situation I felt confident in with the GK. Later in the game, when the Allfather had full equipment, obviously that battle would not have been as difficult. Sorry, I guess I should have been more specific about the situation.

[Norfleet]

Another nice perk of D4, is that it enables you to spam Drain Life in battle, allowing you do the Drain Life/Spam Skeletons combo if simply whailing on your enemies is not a good solution. Plus drain life is a very effective counter to enemy SCs.

I would, however, have avoided N4: It's not necessary for casting GoH, as you can forge a thistle, then forge a moonvine, for N3->N5. In fact, you could have gone as low as N2: Forge thistle, forge moonvine, forge treelord.

The reason for this is that N4 gives you a very undesirable blessing in most cases, as berserking is generally a counterproductive behavior, especially for mages getting hit by stray arrows. What also is often the case is that one or two of your Vans will go berserk, while the rest of the squad flees, leaving the lone berserker to face his enemies alone....and die. The regeneration of N4 is minor at best and will not make a great impact on the relatively fragile Vans. Nature blessing is better for nations like Jotunheim, who have beefier troops and therefore greater regeneration.

I'd also have suggested more order. Order-3 is nearly a must-have for any nation, especially one with mages as expensive as yours. Take another tilt of misfortune: It won't kill you. Grab another tilt of Order....then you decide whether you want to go to Death-2, or even 3....in for a penny, in for a pound, after all: If you're willing to accept that your population will all die anyway, a small rate increase is now irrelevant. This will let you pay for more Order, or perhaps Magic, or just more pretender magics. You may even wish to consider some, but not 3, Sloth: Vans are not terribly resource-expensive troops, especially given their cost: Gold, not resources, will be your obstacle in producing them.

[ May 19, 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
what solutions for global enchantments and afflictions can you provide with a less-expensive avatar?

I would have probably taken astral 6, and boosted it to 7 as soon as possible with a skullcap. With astral 1 and nature magic 2 you have access to enough boosting items to bring yourself up to nature 5 for gift of health.

My alternatives were Water 3, an 80 point castle, or an upgrade to dominion 7. Do you still feel differently? Where would you spend those points?

I'd actually try and get another order scale or two so that I could get as many hangadrott's as possible.

I would not have sent a naked Allfather into that battle... a situation I felt confident in with the GK.

I guess I assumed that you would have made him some items by that point, since Helheim has almost all you'd need by construction 4. Of course, he would get poisoned, but poison gas is not nearly as dangerous as death poison.

[Blitz]

Good points from both of you. I knew that taking sloth was an option, as I had tried various ideas, but I was trying to avoid it, as I do like to recruit a LOT of infantry fast in the early game. Tilting one towards order and taking a sloth scale is something I tried. Money is generally superior to resources in this game, so it's actually a tendancy of mine. I'll try another game with Order 2 and Sloth 1 and see how it goes.

Taking an extra level of death would either let me take Order 3 or Astral 5. I know where you stand on this Graeme, what do you think Norfleet? Death 1, Order 3, or Astral 5? I admit I don't play with the death scale much, so this isn't really my area of expertise.

As for dropping to nature 3, it seems like a good idea. Unfortunately my design is exactly 500 points, and it's only a savings of 32 points. I could upgrade to a castle, take earth 4, or riase to dominion 7. Obviously the castle would help offset the effects of my sloth choice, but wasting 12 points is annoying and I don't really see any other places to cut costs. Earth 4 does open up some interesting possibilities like forge of the ancients and king of elemental earth. The former would solve a lot of my forging headaches, while the latter is just a real nice addition to any army. The blessing would be a nice bonus as well.

I really like the idea that my GK can also turn rainbow mage, not just for site searching, but for lategame battles. When you have 3-4 uber SC's in your army already, your pretender can often be of more use casting some of those really nasty high level combat rituals. Of course I'll have Demiliches for the death stuff, but if I can find some decent communion slaves, he might be a lot of fun to use that way.

[Blitz]

Here's Version 2.0 of the GK.

Ghost King (480 points)
6 Dominion
Fortress
2A
2W
3E
5S
4D
2N
+3 order
-1 sloth
-1 cold (free)
-1 death (forced)
-1 luck

I gave up air 3 and nature 3/4 to get order 3. Sloth 1 gave me astral 5. Losing air 3 hurts, but I guess I can always empower as I do start with a pretty decent air gem income. The extra money will go to Hangadrotts, and I might get lucky there. Either that or the national hero although with Order 3 and Misfortune 1 that's not really something I can count on.

If I have to GOH, I can do your three-step plan Norfleet. More likely I'll end up forging a ring of wizardry and solving both problems at the same time.

Gonna try this guy out, let you know how it goes...

[Blitz]

Seeking a new challenge, I've decided to try my hand at Vanheim. Since I'm a fan of death magic, the Helheim theme seems a good place to start. Like all themes, Helheim has it's strengths and weaknesses. They get the fabulous Hangadrott, who seems worth every penny of his 400 gold pricetag. They get some interesting earth/death dwarves, who can be easily pumped up to 3/3 power by construction 2. Their Valkries are supposedly stronger, but I can't see any difference. Unlike Midgaard, they can recruit their Vans anywhere. They lose the excellent EEE? dwarf, as well as third-rank air power.

Obviously Helheim has some significant weaknesses. Their Cheapest random mage costs 400 gold. This severely limits site searching and forging. Thus they have no easy access to Fire, Astral, Nature, or Water magic, which means they are completely at the mercy of potentialy crippling globals like burden of time or wrath of god. They have no cheap researcher or level 3 priest, and their infantry isn't spectacular.

I knew I wanted to cover the magical weaknesses on my pretender, preferably the Allfather. I find it very hard to play without astral magic, especially against the computer. For some reason the AI dosen't seem to care about bad enchantments and will let them sit there destroying their troops until you find a way to deal with it. With death magic summons and the Van SC's, I knew I would need affliction removal. I also had to have 3 air, as I would need it to get staff of storms and arrow fend. I wanted to do all this without crippling scales, preferably on a SC chassis. Frankly there was no way to do it on the Allfather with his 30 point paths and high pricetag. Instead, I turned to my favorite rainbow SC, the Ghost King.

Ghost King (520 points)
6 Dominion
Fortress
3A
2W
3E
4S
4D
4N
+1 order
-1 cold (free)
-1 death (forced)
-1 luck

Without totally killing my scales, I think I came up with a very good jack-of-all trades pretender. I could cast tier 5 rituals in 4 paths with only construction 4 items (air - helm & bag, Death - staff, Nature - mace, Astral - coin), and with a little work, even in Earth (boots and blood stone). I could site search all but fire and blood... plus a real nice SC. The blessing won't be the greatest, but you can't have everything. Obviously using him efficiently will be the key to winning.

Turn 1
Researching: Alteration 1
Recruited: Vanjarl, 4 Einheres

I really like the Einheres. I've tried mixing spears, swords, and berserkers evenly, but the Einheres are much faster than the Hirdmen, and get killed quickly when the first wave gets spread out. Unlike most shieldless troops, they don't suffer too badly against bows, as this triggers their berserk. The plan is to get a horde of them and watch the carnage.


Turn 2
Researching: Alteration 2
Recruited: 5 Einheres

As we need numbers to make our Einheres effective, I don't recruit a mage yet. Vanjarl becomes prophet.


Turn 3
Researching: Alteration 2
Recruited: Dwarf, 3 Einheres

My pretender, prophet, and all troops head for the nearest farmland. My starting Vanherse will serve me better in the lab for now.


Turn 4
Researching: Alteration 2
Recruited: Herse, 3 Einheres

Since I'm going to leave my dwarf and Vanherse in the lab, I need someone to ferry troops to the main group. I don't like recruiting a melee commander this early, but it really can't be helped.


Turn 5
Researching: Alteration 3
Recruited: Dwarf, 2 Einheres

With 13 Einheres in the main group now, I split the javlineers to the flanks and set to fire archers. This should cut down on friendly fire. My GK could probably solo at this point, but I don't think it's worth the risk, so I keep him with the main force. The GK and prophet hit the next indy bordering my capitol. I will keep it conservative and leave pretender and prophet together until Alteration 3.


Turn 6
Researching: Alteration 3
Recruited: Dwarf, 5 Einheres

GK and prophet search second indy province. Herse continues ferrying troops to the main group.


Turn 7
Researching: Alteration 3
Recruited: Dwarf, 2 Einheres

I'm now at at respectable 27rp/turn with my 4 dwarves and starting Vanjarl in the lab. Gk and prophet attack the third and final border province.


Turn 8
Researching: Construction 1
Recruited: 6 Einheres

I've reached Alteration 3, and my GK will now expand on his own. I send a dwarf over to help the prophet search his new provinces. The dwarf and Vanjarl will cover death, air, and earth sites, which are my priorities. Gk and prophet search the third indy province. I'm up to 30 Einheres, and the army will be fine without my SC (no casualties thus far on level 6 indies).


Turn 9
Researching: Construction 2
Recruited: Dwarf, 2 Einheres

GK and Prophet/Dwarf Groups both attack seperate indies. I recruit another dwarf, keeping me at 4 total in the lab.


Turn 10
Researching: Construction 2
Recruited: Nothing

It's time to start saving for a Hangadrott. Both Groups search their respective provinces.


Turn 11
Researching: Construction 3
Recruited: Hangadrott, 2 Einheres

My army and SC continue clearing indy provinces, and I start my next force. I still can't afford to start Vans, so I continue with infantries for the time being. As most of my money is being spent on expensive mages and troops, I can't really afford more researchers... so I start making quills with my Vanherse. The new Hangadrott will spend some time in the lab waiting for his army to be recruited.


Turn 12
Researching: Construction 3
Recruited: Vanjarl, 4 Einheres

Now it's time to start bloodhunting. I'll probably use 2 Vanjarls for a while and hope for indy luck. I'm not planning heavy blood magic, so even 2 Vanjarls should be able to harvest enough blood slaves to support one summoner.


After that, strategy was dictated my gem income and opponent's moves for the most part. I ended up swimming in death gems and still hadn't found any sages, so at Construction 4 I took a turn and churned out 4 Skull Mentors. That boosted my researching to a surprising 76rp/t with only 4 dwarves. I used my starting Vanherse to forge a variety of air-based items for my leaders. I'm pretty happy with the way the game is going... at turn 25 I've got Pythium on the ropes and I managed to find Enchantresses, which will let me forge Jade Armor. My GK managed to take out 4 hydras, a situation I'm not sure the supposedly superior Allfather would have managed well. While the game is going well, I'm sure the opening could be refined some.

Questions for experienced Vanheim players:

1) How do you use Einheres? Do you mass them as I did, use them as flankers, or mix them with Hirdmen? If you prefer Hirdmen, do you require a larger production bonus to maintain production and expansion?

2) When do you start producing Vans, when not using a bless strategy?

3) How do you manage the slow teching problem? Do you think 40 death gems is a reasonable price to pay for 36 rp/turn early in the game? Was shooting for Construction 4 and skull mentor a good plan to save on researcher costs?

4) When do you start blood hunting? How much hunting?

5) Am I wrong to use staff of storms and storm demons instead of Valkries? Am I better off using storm-powered Vanherses with mistform or... no storm, valkries, and the more expensive Vanjarls?

6) Do you think I skimped on scales? If so, what solutions for global enchantments and afflictions can you provide with a less-expensive avatar?

7) Do skinshifters suck *** as much as I think they do? Can you take sloth 3/Order 3 and rely on them as heavy infantry? Aren't I better off with 1 Van than 2 Skinshifters on the flanks?

Looking forward to feedback.