Ultimate Mod from spaceempires.org

[TacticDragon]

I have been playing SE4 on and off since the beginning of this year and I recently installed spaceempires.org's Ultimate Mod. I had already patched the unmodded Version up to Version 1.49, so I had to tweak the settings file to make the mod work.

I always play on max number of AI opponents (including neutral races) and max difficulty/bonus for AI. My race, called the Altuvian Nomads, is Psychic, Propulsion Experts, and Religious; honorable warriors with the rest of attribute points spent on research/intelligence/space combat. I like huge middle-aged galaxies.

One of my problems is that I have yet to finish a single game. Not because it gets too long (I like epic games and don't mund playing the same one for weeks or even months at end). But because I usually reach a point where I basically know I have won the game and it is simply not challenging enough to be fun anymore. So I start a new one, which is fine I guess . Anyways, I installed the Ultimate Mod to see if it would make the game even more interesting (don't get me wrong, I LOVE this game).

Here are some of my findings on the Ultimate Mod:

1) It is great, and certainly adds new dimensions to an already superb game. Please keep this in mind as you read below.

2) I am not so fond of all the new races' bitmaps though, since they are not always conforming with the original races' styles. This is just my personal preference though.

3) I just played a battle against 25 heavy cruisers equipped with almost only 270mm machine guns as weapons. Since this weapon only takes up 5 spaces in the design, it means that each cruiser was equipped with loads and loads of these low damage, relatively high range weapons. Not a fun battle. It would probably take a day to play it in tactical mode. If any of the authors read this, please do something about it!

4) On retrofiting captured ships. Maybe this is a bug, maybe it is related to me installing the mod on Version 1.49 of the original SE4. But somehow, captured enemy ships have a VERY low maintenance cost. Example: 241/0/0 for a heavy cruiser (new ship size, between the cruiser and battle cruiser). This is ridiculous and seems wrong. Consequently, it becomes impossible to retrofit these ships into my own designs, since I would always violate the "there can be a max difference of 50% cost between ship designs". Since retrofiting enemy ships is part of my usual strategy, I had to tweak the settings file again, and change the 50% into 10,000%. Which brings me to my next point.

5) This point is not specific to the Ultimate Mod, but to SE4 in general. What is the point of having this 50% rule? Let's say I want to retrofit "design1" into "design3". If the rule is violated (eg. when you want to install those new expensive Master Computers into your old ships), an easy but tedious solution I found was to create an 'intermediate' design, say "design2" whose cost is somewhere in between "design1" and "design3". I would then retrofit "design1" twice in a row: first to "design2" then into "design3". It is expensive but still better and faster than scrapping "design1" and building "design3" from scratch, thereby losing crew experience etc.

I would enjoy seeing more comments about the Ultimate Mod here. I am always seeking the "ultimate gaming experience" in strategy games, and SE4, with all its editable files, seems to be able to live up to such an experience. AIs will always be stupid, but there are ways to make them less so and more of a challenge to the human player. I would like to have your comments and ideas on this.

Thanks!

[Phoenix-D]

quote:

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This point is not specific to the Ultimate Mod, but to SE4 in general. What is the point of having this 50% rule?

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Easy. Build cheap ship. Since it's cheap, it builds in one turn. Now make a ship, the same size, but MUCH more expensive. Retrofit the first ship to the second type; chances are the retrofit will be complete before the second ship.

It becomes a chessy way of speeding up the building process.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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It becomes a cheesy way of speeding up the building process.

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Using a retrofit series will typically increase the build speed by a huge amount. It also increases the cost by a lot, since you have to pay about 90% of the cost of each design in the series.
For most mods, the repair time of the final product is insignificant.

However, in P&N, retroseries are a fact of life, and I consider it a valid "Rush Build" strategy.
In my case, a number of factors combine to reduce the exploitation of retroseries:
- I've reduced the repair ability of the spaceyards. Actually repairing the final product can take longer than building it straight up in some cases.
- Changes in armor and engines mean lots of small components to repair during a retroseries. 100 armor and 20 engines on a Cruiser is not unreasonable, so if you use a retroseries to build the cruiser at a space yard 3, you'll have 40 turns to wait before the ship is done, rather than 4 turns for a normal build.
- The cost of longer retroseries becomes enormous. Going more than a few steps can double or triple your construction costs, plus you pay maintenance on the ship.

In the end, retroseries are useful only for very expensive components, such as SM, BattleMoons, or retrofitting the cheap AI ships. In order to effectively Rush Build normal ships, you must have lots of auxiliary bases dedicated to component repair.

[dogscoff]

It'll never happen before SEV but...

I think the best solution to the retrofit series problem (and it is a problem) would be to go back to the SEIII build queue system, where there is no real difference between building and repairing.

I ought to dig out SEIII one of these days, just for a laugh.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Why don't you just the 50% limit up to say 75% or 100%. That is what I do so I can avoid those pesky "50% limit" cap crap (say that 5 times fast baby!)

[Suicide Junkie]

Every time you have to go through another intermediate hull design, the price of doing a retroseries jumps.

The 50% limit is good, if not a little high.
You can retrofit three or four upgrades at once before you have to pay extra.

Completely rebuilding every component on a ship should definitely cost you a lot.

It can be pesky if you're not ready for it, but all you have to do is remove components from your end design, reducing its price to 70%, and then save that new design as the intermediate retro.

[disabled]

In all honesty, I never found a use for retrofitting ships. I guess I prefer to buy ships new instead of rebuilding them.

[ June 13, 2003, 06:20: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[TacticDragon]

Thank you all for your comments.

1) Hadrian, when will the next Version be realeased btw? I keep checking your website but it is still the old Version...

2) That's funny, cause I kind of like the Pacean. I was thinking of the population/leader picture of the House of Aleksander, for example, which seems 'out of context'.

3) I'm not really concerned about the power of the machine gun. My concern was when the AI uses them extensively. A fleet of 25 BCs with 50 some machine guns each for example, is a nightmare in a tactic combat. Literally, I can go cook my dinner when it is the AI's turn, even with fast movement option switched on. Even strategic combats take much longer to resolve. This spoils the game.

4) I understand the logic of the 50% rule, and I think although it is sometimes a pain, it is the best possible solution given the current design of the game. Again, my biggest concern was in the Ultimate Mod. Why are some captured enemy ships SO cheap to maintain: 241/0/0 for a BC? This must be a bug??? Unless they can be analyzed for tech, these ships are only good for scrapping, and then only give a very meager amount of resources...

5) I guess retroseries are fine after all: you get what you want, fast and all, but you pay for it. Sounds good. I wish the 50% rule would be clearer though: is it 50% of the original cost? If for example design1 costs 100, what is the maximum cost of design2? 150? It doesn't seem to work that way, and each time I end up finding design2 by trial and error.

6) On game challenge: the idea of having AIs surrender to each other is interesting. I wish they would do this without me having to tell them. However, before that, I wish there was a way to prevent the AI from doing stupid things, like:
- sending ships into known minefields without minesweepers;
- sending unprotected colony ships into my territory: if I can't capture them, I let them pass, and then follow them with a loaded troop transport This is cool early in the game especially if the enemy can colonize planets that I cannot. Plus I get population that usually breathes something else...
- sending tons of ships into black holes
- destroying colonies instead of invading them with troops (even colonies I just took from them, so they kill their own race...)
- not using master computers to counter allegiance subverters... Btw, I think the self-destruct component should have a chance to work against allegiance subverters (is this possible to implement?)
- etc.

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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5) I guess retroseries are fine after all: you get what you want, fast and all, but you pay for it. Sounds good. I wish the 50% rule would be clearer though: is it 50% of the original cost? If for example design1 costs 100, what is the maximum cost of design2? 150? It doesn't seem to work that way, and each time I end up finding design2 by trial and error.

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Design K+1 must have a total cost less than 150% of Design K.
Open up "calc.exe", and sum up mineral cost + organic cost + radioactives cost (of Design K). Multiply by 1.45 (to be safe). Then make Design K+1 with a total cost close to that value.

Or, working backwards, multiply by 0.7 and remove components from Design K+1 to get Design K.

Repeat until you have the price low enough to build in a reasonable time, or high enough to retrofit to the final design (depending on which way you're working).

Key points:
- Less than 1.5x, or more than 0.667x the cost.
- Sum over all three resources to get the cost.
- Use the prices listed in the "edit" view of the ship design menu.

[TacticDragon]

5) Somehow I must have neglected the cost in organics and radioactives

This explains it! Thanks.