OT: in a windy Salon article David Brin says,

[rextorres]

"Sauron's army was the one that included every species and race on Middle Earth, including all the despised colors of humanity, and all the lower classes.

Hmm. Did they all leave their homes and march to war thinking, "Oh, goody, let's go serve an evil Dark Lord"?

Or might they instead have thought they were the "good guys," with a justifiable grievance worth fighting for, rebelling against an ancient, rigid, pyramid-shaped, feudal hierarchy topped by invader-alien elfs and their Numenorean-colonialist human lackeys?"

Never thought of TLOR this way.

[ January 02, 2003, 07:38: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Fyron]

The elves were in Middle Earth long before Men came.

[geoschmo]

It's always an intersting mental exercise thinking about a piece of popular fiction from the point of view of the "bad guys".

The noble Emporer Palpatine stuggles valiantly aginst the forces of chaos as he tries to maintain order in the galaxy after the downfall of the once mighty but ultimatly corrupt republic. His first goal is to renew the military's sense of honor and discipline after generations of inadaquate funding. Then he must attempt to restablish the rule of law in the sectors far from the galactic core at Corsucant. The Empire faces stiff challanges from without and within as the old power structure attempts to reassert itself with the help of a religious cult that gives mindless obedience to the superstitious mumbo jumbo of the "force". History shows that far from the gallant defenders of the poor and disadvantaged they are potrayed as in current popular fiction, the Jedi Knights were actually the secret police organization that the former republic used to keep the masses in fear and in line.

[ January 02, 2003, 14:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[geoschmo]

Here is another one I am sure you will recognize. This one was a little harder cause the "bad guys" in this case are so one-dimensional in the movie.

Message to Emperor Katrix
From Ambassador Ratal

Your eminence. It is with a heavy heart that I must report the complete failure of negotiations with the indigenous population on Renack 3. The dominant species on the planet, known to themselves as Human, turned out to be much more hostile and paranoid than our intelligence reports had indicated. Our initial attempts at communicating to them through their own satellite network was apparently perceived by them as an aggressive action on our part.

Tensions escalated further when one of their atmospheric vehicles approached our lead ship and began using what we initially believed to be some sort of energy weapon. The Humans vehicle was immediately destroyed in a purely defensive move by the ships crew. Later analysis indicated that we may have been hasty in that determination however as it appears that it was simply a series of high intensity light beams they were attempting to use as a means of communication.

The sequence of events of the next few hours was extremely chaotic and not totally clear at this time. The Human population began a series of reckless attacks on our forces, all of which were completely ineffective due to their severe technological disadvantage. Despite our best efforts to limit collateral damage, several of their cities were destroyed in the ensuing combat when the Humans, in a barbaric act of desperation, used nuclear devices on trade ships that were stationed over their own population centers. Obviously these Humans had no regard for their own lives as no civilized society would even produce, much less use weapons of mass destruction such as this. The Trade ships were not damaged as their energy shields easily withstood the bLasts. Unfortunately all Human life for many miles around each was exterminated.

At that point somehow the Humans managed to sneak aboard the lead trade ship in orbit and disable the shield grid for the trade ships on the planet. Again it was the use of the barbaric nuclear weapons that, ignited from inside this time, totally destroyed the lead trade ship. The feedback pulse crippled the shield network, enabling the Human military vehicles to break through and destroy our momentarily stunned trade ships on the planet.

The following day I had the sad duty to write off the expedition and ordered the planets Human population eradicated by orbital bombardment. According to my scientific adjutant there are several species of marine life that show promising signs of developing intelligence, if the environmental damage done by the former dominant species is not too great. Perhaps we should schedule a return visit to the system in a few thousand chronars.

Respectfully, your servant.
Ratal

[ January 02, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Puke]

Brin hates anyone who isnt him. his rips on Lucas are alot better than his ones on Tolken, but you have to understand, he will rip on anyone who isnt him.

[Pax]

Originally posted by rextorres:
"Sauron's army was the one that included every species and race on Middle Earth, including all the despised colors of humanity, and all the lower classes.

Hmm. Did they all leave their homes and march to war thinking, "Oh, goody, let's go serve an evil Dark Lord"?

Or might they instead have thought they were the "good guys," with a justifiable grievance worth fighting for, rebelling against an ancient, rigid, pyramid-shaped, feudal hierarchy topped by invader-alien elfs and their Numenorean-colonialist human lackeys?"

Never thought of TLOR this way.

There's one error -- there were NEVER Elves in Saurons' army; Orcs were a failed attempt to make evil elves. And I'm not at all certain in regards to Dwarves.

However, as for Men ... Men are traditionally a neutral race in the LOTR mythos; there are good men, there are bad men, and there are all the countless shades of grey in between.

Those who marched in Sauron's army did so for greed, power lust, and sometimes the sheer joy of killing.

But there were NEVER Elves in Sauron's armies, in EITHER War of the Ring (the second of which is yet to come, film-wise ... ... )

[Fyron]

He may have meant in his employ. Elves did work for him at one point (crafting of the rings). Dwarves never fought directly in his armies either. Ents most certainly never worked with him at all.

[ January 02, 2003, 19:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Cheeze]

Hobbits never served Sauron either. The rings were forged with Sauron's help and advice, but it can't be said the elves served Sauron. The elves creating the rings made sure they kept them away from Sauron, and he lacked the influence over the elvish rings and their bearers as he did those of the dwarves and humans.

Dwarves never served Sauron either, although the wars between the dwarves and elves was mostly through Sauron's meddling, and that of Sauron's master.