spob20 Yugoslavia

[zastava128]

I understand a few errors crept in because the OOB underwent major changes last year, so I'll keep this focused on ironing out these. I've also tried experimenting to see what stuff the AI picks and made a few according suggestions.


UNITS

017 - From what I can tell this gun wasn't used by the Yugoslavs at all. I think this is a hold-over back from the original Steel Panthers. What the Royal Army actually used was the 37mm KPUV vz 37 AT gun (see Czechoslovak OOB), which can have the same start date and its end date can be extended to 12/44 since it was used by the partisans, too.

Here's a couple of photos of the gun in question:

http://fototeka.sabh.hr/FotoAlbumi/Fotografija/1212

http://fototeka.sabh.hr/FotoAlbumi/Fotografija/179

Note: the 25mm gun currently appears in scenario 032.

024 - start date can be changed to 10/44 (I goofed last year - the first ones were captured and put in use during the liberation of Belgrade)

033 - I think this should be the Breda M.37 (which is actually pictured), not Breda M.30. Here's a photo of an actual MG used by the partisans:

http://www.lokalpatrioti-rijeka.com/...e.php?id=19815

074 - radio code can be set to 2, they were far more common than the T-34/76s (the latter were really just a handful of captured vehicles)

118 and 119 - unit class should be changed to 234 (5-man squads are intended for the partisan cavalry formations)

283 - Weapon in slot 1 should be 14.

335 - orphaned. Unit class should be 6 (alternatively, you could make a Heavy AT Gun formation, but I think this is simpler).

441 - It has 8 crew and radio code 22. I believe it should be 4 crew and radio code 2?

455 and 456 - I recommend unit class to be changed to 19. This is because the AI likes to take units from class 19, and will choose unrealistically large numbers of Stuart-PaKs. This change will help alleviate the problem somewhat.

459 - end date should be 4/41 (fall of Yugoslavia).


FORMATIONS

014 - start date should be 11/44, to accomodate unit 455 (see above).

017 - start date can be changed to 1/44 - AT gun platoons existed already at that time.

025 - Template unit should be 15 (Heavy Truck). Right now it is 13, which is actually a medium truck.

059 - start date should be 11/42, to accomodate some guns that appear then.

148 - end date should be 4/41 (see above).

There's no MG platoon for 1/45-12/46 - I think it would be nice to have one for convenience sake. It would consist of 3x unit 37 (Maxim HMGs)


WEAPONS

089 - wasn't used, should be replaced with RPG-40.

37mm KPUV vz 37 AT gun and Breda M.37 will need to be added (see above)

That will be all for this year.

[Mobhack]

Hmm, I have only just tested the WW2 patch installer and the MBT one is in the finishing stages as well.

So unless Don is really feeling like rebuilding and re-uploading 62MB of files and then retesting the installation of same all over again - then that will be all for next year, more likely.

cheers
Andy

[zastava128]

Ah, ok then, next year it is. Glad to hear the patch is almost ready.

[zastava128]

I'd like to request the following changes/additions. I've now exhausted the available literature, so this pretty much wraps it up for this OOB, save for a couple of utility vehicles and maybe a patrol boat or two. But I'll leave those for next year.

UNITS:

036 - end date can be extended to 12/46 - as a rule, German weapons remained in use to the end of the war and longer

143 - end date can be extended to 12/44, since it was used by the local guerrillas and militias

162 - end date can be extended until 12/45, since it was only phased out after the war

Request adding: Rifle Squad (unit class: 1) weapons diversification
-Currently, all Rifle Squads from 1/45-12/46 all have Soviet weapons, while historically there were still plenty of captured German weapons as well as ex-Royal Yugoslav ones in use. Thus, I'd request Rifle Squads with the following weapon combinations be added:

1. Kar 98k Rifle + MG34 LMG + Hand Grenade + Tellermine (1/45-12/45)
2. Kar 98k Rifle + MG42 LMG + Hand Grenade + GebaltenGranate (1/45-12/46, radio code: 1)
3. M24 Rifle + VZ30J LMG + Hand Grenade + Hawkins Mine (1/45-12/46)

Request adding: Ja-12 (arty tractor)
-date: 1/45-12/46
-unit class: 180
-Sent by Soviets together with other vehicles. I think it would be a good thing to add them since there's currently only horse limbers in the OOB.
Photo: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/p...okrakom/p6.jpg
-can be found in Polish LWP OOB, unit 182

Request adding: Partisan AT / Bazooka
-date: 9?/44-12/46
-unit class: 2
-Sent to the partisans via the British mission on the island of Vis.
-photo of British officer teaching how to use it: http://www.bosnienforum.com/showthre...?t=3040&page=3

Request adding: Autoblinda 40
-date: 9/43-12/45
-unit class: 11
-I've found this model of the Autoblinda was also among those captured by the partisans. Attaching photo.

Request adding: Panhard 178
-date: 11?/44-12/46
-unit class: 11
-I found out they were captured and used in combat by the partisans.
-several Pahnards can be seen behind the trucks on the right on this photo: http://s832.photobucket.com/user/dra...qdq4m.jpg.html

Request adding: M13/40
-date: 9/43-?/45
-unit class: 159
-A few were captured and used by partisans when Italy surrendered. Attaching photo.

Request adding: 305mm 16M Skoda Mortar
-date: 1/30-4/41
-unit class: 155
-Used by Yugo Royal Army, inherited from Austria-Hungary. I think it would be a good idea to add since the current OOB lacks this kind of siege arty.
-can be found in Hungarian OOB (unit 255)

Request adding: 5cm GrW 36 - six men, 2 mortars per unit
-date: 1/43-12/45
-unit class: 153
-captured from Germans by partisans, also used by Ustashe
-photo of partisan 5cm GrW: http://fototeka.sabh.hr/FotoAlbumi/Fotografija/1714

Request adding: Fieseler Storch
-date: 10/43-12/44
-unit class: 50
-a small number of aircraft were either captured or defected following the surrender of Italy. I'd use the Storch to represent these (in reality there was a variety of unarmed aircraft, but the Storch is already in the game, so it's easier to use it to represent all of them).

Request adding BF 109G-2/R-1
-date: 4/45-12/46
-unit class: 44
-again, these were captured planes and defectors. Remained in use after end of war (as seen in WinSPMBT).
-info: http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/yugo...Indyhq-sqn.htm


FORMATIONS:
If Storch is added, Formation 79 start date should be 10/43.


WEAPONS (new, for requested units):
MG 42 LMG - for Rifle Squad
Bazooka - for Pastisan AT
8mm (2) TMG - for Autoblinda 40
25mm SA 35 L/53 - for Panhard 178
5cm GrW 36
305mm 16M Skoda Mortar
13mm MG-131 - for BF 109G
30mm MK-101 - ditto

I'm attaching 5 relevant photos plus what I think are higher-res versions of 3 photos used in the game.

[Pibwl]

A couple of suggestions:

05 M.28 - I suggest name Renault M.28, for it wasn't a standalone designation, but model 1928.

21 65mm Mtn Gun - picture is Russian 76mm M.13 (from Finnish OOB). Maybe it should be French 65mm mle 06 (picture 468)? Same for unit 320.

22 M7 105mm HMC - I don't insist to change the name, but out of interest, they were known as Serman (Sherman) self-propelled gun in Yugoslavian Army. Maybe M7 Sherman?..

23 M8 HMC - as above, they were known as Stuart self-propelled gun.

63 Yak-9 - I don't know which version it is supposed to be, but an armament should be only 1 x 20mm gun (not 23mm) and 1 x 12.7 if it was most numerous Soviet Yak-9M, or 1 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7, if it's late-war high performance Yak-9U (less likely).

72 T-34/76 - in fact, T-34/76 were several captured ex-German machines (the soviet Union equipped Yugoslavian 2nd Tank Brigade with new T-34/85), so maybe class 159 Captured tank is better, so they won't be mixed.

73 M3A1 Stuart - photo is M3A3. I'll attach a Yugo one.

159 Hurricane I - this 1939 Hurricane has late-war photo 2080 (from Yugo RAF squadron), with prominent stars, more appropriate for unit 268
Photos of early ones http://defenceoftherealm.files.wordp..._hurricane.jpg
http://www.sas1946.com/images/image*...brooklands.jpg
http://www.sas1946.com/images/image*...8/whitexlc.jpg

187 Alpine AT Rifle - photo is PTRD, not Solothurn

268 Hurricane Mk.IV - it could be doubled with 2x250 lbs bombs

271 Caproni Ca.310 - has Norwegian markings. A photo is eg. here http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9b809839.jpg
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps03c5b9e5.jpg

273 Breguet XIX - a photo of Yugoslavian one
http://avioni.net/vvkj/fotografije/01134.jpg

Now it's only AOP plane - it's worth to be doubled as a fighter-bomber (eg. copied #579 from Polish oob, with some MG - say #163 7.7mm MG, and 4x100 kg bombs

289,290 Partisan AT, 291,590 Cetnik AT - photos might be replaced with some Molotovs...

302 TK-3 - on a photo are in fact TKS, and most probably German ones from a propaganda movie Heimkehr, pretending to be Polish, not Ustase ones.
There are photos of real Croatian TK-3 http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=173309

303 PzKw I B - photo is actually Pz IA (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...97186&start=15), as well as other photos of Croatian Pz I on this forum, so maybe unit's should be changed

349 MGCA M.37 Breda - photo is some other LMG (I pointed it out in Italian OOB).

451 CV-33/35 LF - maybe a category should be changed from Captured tank to Flame tank, since other ordinary captured tanks appear in #114 Flame Tank formation.

459 White-Laffly AM - Zastava 128 mentioned about White AM in this subject http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49959 , but it must be old White AM (#407 from French OOB), not relatively new Laffly 80.

[Pibwl]

Photos of Stuarts

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

21 65mm Mtn Gun - picture is Russian 76mm M.13 (from Finnish OOB). Maybe it should be French 65mm mle 06 (picture 468)? Same for unit 320.

Agree, I think this is a better choice.

22 M7 105mm HMC - I don't insist to change the name, but out of interest, they were known as Serman (Sherman) self-propelled gun in Yugoslavian Army. Maybe M7 Sherman?..

23 M8 HMC - as above, they were known as Stuart self-propelled gun.

I don't think these were the official designations during WW2. Terminology wasn't consistent in any case. I'd probably leave them as-is.

63 Yak-9 - I don't know which version it is supposed to be, but an armament should be only 1 x 20mm gun (not 23mm) and 1 x 12.7 if it was most numerous Soviet Yak-9M, or 1 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7, if it's late-war high performance Yak-9U (less likely).

The only thing I was able to find regarding this is a recollection by a Yugoslav pilot. He actually mentions his commander's Yak-9 had a 23mm gun, but of course he could be mistaken since he's talking about something that happened 30 years ago.

Yugoslavia did have both Yak-9M and Yak-9U, but I have no idea whether the latter were acquired during WW2 or after it.

72 T-34/76 - in fact, T-34/76 were several captured ex-German machines (the soviet Union equipped Yugoslavian 2nd Tank Brigade with new T-34/85), so maybe class 159 Captured tank is better, so they won't be mixed.

True, though the 76s (there were 5 of them) were added to the same unit as the 85s. Still, I think your solution is probably better.

303 PzKw I B - photo is actually Pz IA (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...97186&start=15), as well as other photos of Croatian Pz I on this forum, so maybe unit's should be changed

I think they actually had both A and B versions. Problem is, sources sometimes confuse German and Croatian-operated tanks.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by zastava128

I don't think these were the official designations during WW2. Terminology wasn't consistent in any case. I'd probably leave them as-is.

Maybe not official, but at least they were called so in reports, according to bilingual "Armored units and vehicles in Croatia during WWII Part I" (which I have in scans)

T-34/76 is mentioned in this book only in a context of trophies of Stuart-armed 1st Tank bde.

As for PzKpfw-I, maybe it's best to omit Ausf letters?

To end the subject from my side, I'll quote myself from earlier posts, for consideration:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Maybe there could be added Danube river monitors?...

There is already one ex-Yugoslavian in a Hungarian oob: #137 Drava (available 1/30-4/41), that could be copied, with its weapons. If a speed on water is calculated the same way, it could be faster: 13 knots (24 km/h) = 8 (now 5). Radio should be 90.

There could be also created several others, using Drava as a pattern, retaining AA gun and MG, only changing main artillery, all available 1/30-4/41:
- Vardar: had two 120/L45 and two 120 L/10 guns, 25 km/h
- Sava: had two 120/L35 (not 45) and one 120 L/10 guns, 24 km/h
- Morava: had two 120/L35, 18 km/h.

Icon 706 represents Drava, but it could also serve for others. Maybe Morava can use 708/709, for she was slightly narrower and had single turrets fore and aft (although she had oval stern). If anybody wanted to bother with creating icons, I can upload plans of all.

Croatian navy afterwards used Sava until 9/44 (sunk) and Bosna (former Morava) until 6/44. I don't know when they were commissioned - first they had to be raised and repaired (1942?)

Morava could use 228 icon

[zastava128]

Maybe not official, but at least they were called so in reports, according to bilingual "Armored units and vehicles in Croatia during WWII Part I" (which I have in scans)

Depends which reports. I've also seen the M8 called "Kadilak" (Cadillac) due to its engine.

There's a table showing some of the local designations on this page if you're interested (scroll to the end). It's in Serbian, but you'll be able to make sense of it I think:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/jna/1945-1948.htm

T-34/76 is mentioned in this book only in a context of trophies of Stuart-armed 1st Tank bde.

You're right, my bad. They were used by the 1st Tank bde. during the last few weeks of the war, but added to the 2nd Tank bde. after the war.

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

63 Yak-9 - I don't know which version it is supposed to be, but an armament should be only 1 x 20mm gun (not 23mm) and 1 x 12.7 if it was most numerous Soviet Yak-9M, or 1 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7, if it's late-war high performance Yak-9U (less likely).

I know I'm late for this update, but I just wanted to say I finally found the answer to this after ages of searching: it's actually supposed to be a Yak-9T with a 37mm gun.

My source (in Polish): http://www.mycity-military.com/slika...7321801_j3.jpg