What Makes a Good Hero?

[analytic_kernel]

I've been working on developing a mod, and am finally ready to make some heroes. The plan is to try to make some heroes which are not overpowered, but not boring or worthless either. Basically, I'm trying to determine what the upper and lower limits are on what people would consider to be worthwhile heroes - ones that would cause them to seriously consider taking luck scales to increase their chances of getting. (My understanding is that Luck +3 gives a 6% chance per turn for hero events.)

I've been through all the Dom 3 forum threads that have "heroes" in their titles and have looked a bit at the Worthy Heroes mod, as incorporated in CB Nations 1.5. I found some partially relevant discussions here and here, but they are not quite what I am looking for. What I'm looking for are some guidelines or rules of thumb for designing good national heroes, or some metrics for determining hero quality. I understand that every nation is different and that there is not likely to be a catch-all formula for determining this. But, that said, I'm guessing that some good guidelines can be developed.

Some of the thoughts running through my mind have been:
(1) What are good classification systems for heroes? Some heroes seem to be excellent fighters. Others are good mages. Some are mixed mages and fighters. What makes a hero stand out in its category?
(2) Suppose the best recruitable mages of a nation have a maximum level of 3 in a path (or maybe 4 with a random pick) - what would be a good minimum path level for a mage hero if it is specializing in a particular path? Something like 4 or 5 maybe?
(3) For fighter heroes, having stats higher than the best fighter recruits of a nation seems to be a typical approach. What about taking the best recruitable fighter unit types and adding new abilities to them to create new hero unit types? Does starting with magical equipment (Enchanted Sword, etc...) count towards being a hero?
(4) How close are awesome heroes such as Lugh the Long Handed to the upper limit of what is considered an acceptable hero? Should some heroes be good SC chasses? Should all fighter heroes be good thug chasses?
(5) Should a hero be roughly equivalent to a mid-game summon? A late-game summon?

[Awful]

I think that on mage heroes, some magic that the nation does not have access to would be nice.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

Some of the thoughts running through my mind have been:
(1) What are good classification systems for heroes? Some heroes seem to be excellent fighters. Others are good mages. Some are mixed mages and fighters. What makes a hero stand out in its category?
(2) Suppose the best recruitable mages of a nation have a maximum level of 3 in a path (or maybe 4 with a random pick) - what would be a good minimum path level for a mage hero if it is specializing in a particular path? Something like 4 or 5 maybe?
(3) For fighter heroes, having stats higher than the best fighter recruits of a nation seems to be a typical approach. What about taking the best recruitable fighter unit types and adding new abilities to them to create new hero unit types? Does starting with magical equipment (Enchanted Sword, etc...) count towards being a hero?
(4) How close are awesome heroes such as Lugh the Long Handed to the upper limit of what is considered an acceptable hero? Should some heroes be good SC chasses? Should all fighter heroes be good thug chasses?
(5) Should a hero be roughly equivalent to a mid-game summon? A late-game summon?

There is really very little in terms of upper and lower limit on how good/bad a hero can be. In my opinions, the most important thing is simply for them to thematically make sense. That said, there are some guidelines might make them fit better current heroes:

*I wouldn't in general put more than 2-3 points of magic more on a hero than can be reached with nationals, or more than 4 in any particular path.

*Fighter heroes stats should mostly be the max you can reasonably get away with thematically. Usually around +5-10 hp, +5 att/df over species norms. Magic weapons that fit thematically are probably just fine.

[Agema]

QM's pretty much right: mostly they need to make sense thematically.

I can't fault his mage suggestions. Bear in mind some heroes can supply enormous advantanges - for instance Tjatse in Utgard/Jotunheim, who is not only a genuine SC but even can have A4, when without him the nations have no natural Air magic at all. But heroes that powerful should be rare, and his suggestion of just a modest boost over natural national capabilities is a good idea.

I would flag up just one issue on fighter heroes, though. 15 Att/Def is supposed to be utterly exceptional, the absolute limit of human capability. Even fighter-build pretender gods tend to be in the range of 12-14Att/Def. So if you take a base human unit or commander and make a hero version, you should consider 14-15 exceptional, and more than 15 a no-go. Consequently a bonus of 2-3 Att/Def might be more realistic: a hero based on a knight might have 14-15Att/Def, a hero based on an ordinary heavy infantryman maybe only 12-14. If you're modding units already superhuman like Van, maybe there consider going over 15, and even then maybe consider giving them extra special abilities instead. Special abilities are often a good way to go - reinvigoration, stealth, recuperation, resistances, sacred and so on.

I have quite a low opinion of many fighter heroes - many of them won't even make adequate thugs, at best they're units to chuck a cheap magic weapon or (say) fear item onto, so you mix them in with normal troops to add a bit more oomph. Whether you want to make some of them thugs, even SCs, or leave them sub-thug is up to you.

[analytic_kernel]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Originally Posted by Agema

QM's pretty much right: mostly they need to make sense thematically.

Definitely agreed.

Originally Posted by Agema

I would flag up just one issue on fighter heroes, though. 15 Att/Def is supposed to be utterly exceptional, the absolute limit of human capability.

Agreed - I've been following the modding manual's advice on that.

I think that this does raise a point though: how do you make acceptable fighter heroes for a human nation which are better than the nation's elite troops, assuming some of the elites are already in the 13-15 att/def range? Maybe adding special abilities is one way to go. Using demigods might be another way. (EA Arco has the Son of Titans, which is more in that vein.)

Originally Posted by Agema

I have quite a low opinion of many fighter heroes - many of them won't even make adequate thugs,

OK, this is an useful evaluation. Do you hold this opinion only for many of the vanilla fighter heroes or for many of the CB/WH fighter heroes as well?
My feeling is that I want fighter heroes to be thuggable, and so I need to find some good role models for them.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

I think that this does raise a point though: how do you make acceptable fighter heroes for a human nation which are better than the nation's elite troops, assuming some of the elites are already in the 13-15 att/def range? Maybe adding special abilities is one way to go. Using demigods might be another way. (EA Arco has the Son of Titans, which is more in that vein.)

Well, there are a lot of reasons why a guy would have supernatureal abilites.

1) He's actually demi-human (Like Son of Titans), son of gods/demons/undead/angels/moose or whatever. Just give the guy demon/undead/magical tag and you could give him att & def 20 if you wanted to.

2) He's somehow blessed by supernatural forces (Green Knight)

3) He has found some sort of artifact (Frodo? King Arthur with Excalibur?), should be combined with kick-*** custom weapon or armor.

4) Magical experiment gone wary? A wizard did it?

5) A mount so awesome that the guy riding it couldn't possibly be human. Tiger? Dragon? Giant Crocodile? A chariot drawn by Wyverns?

6) He's just that badass. Jet Li reincarnate.

The basic idea is that once you manage to free the character from the weak bounds of humanity, he can have the stats you want him to have.

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

My feeling is that I want fighter heroes to be thuggable, and so I need to find some good role models for them.

Hmm..

Hard one. I've made a few that I think are okay, but those probably really don't count.

Seriously, I can't think of any decent* human fighter heroes. Some help guys?

Bernlad the Green Knight (Man)

Man, I have a rant about this guy. He was actually beheaded in the legends and he gets regeneration? Understatement of the year.

Originally Posted by Sombre

With the Lizardmen mod, I intended to add some weaker heroes to balance out the really amazing ones. So for every ubermage demigod you get, there are other games where you'll get the incredibly stealthy scout guy. Of course I wouldn't go making any heroes worthless, but you can certainly make amazing ones rarer by adding more average or below average ones to the same nation, along with multiheroes that aren't anything special.

I can't agree with this reasoning. Getting a hero is pretty rare (even with luck scales) and everytime you get something that you just instantly dismiss just isn't really fun. It kinda sucks all the luck out of your "lucky" event.

"Oh sweet, I got an hero! But apparently I wasn't lucky enough... *sigh*"

Not that every hero needs to have 10 picks of magic, but each and every one of them should be awesome in their own ways. I have hard time thinking of a scout hero doing something couldn't be done by regular scouts.


*decent = being actually glad about getting the hero, instead of just going "okay, he can ferry troops, I guess".

[Agema]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Man, I have a rant about this guy. He was actually beheaded in the legends and he gets regeneration? Understatement of the year.

The Green Knight would be useful with a few more HP and regeneration (20%?) as well. Alternatively or additionally, make him immortal, so you can feel free to chuck him around in friendly Dom.

[Foodstamp]

Lugh The Long Handed Destroys Everyone!!one1!

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

Some of the thoughts running through my mind have been:
(1) What are good classification systems for heroes? Some heroes seem to be excellent fighters. Others are good mages. Some are mixed mages and fighters. What makes a hero stand out in its category?

1) Mage heroes - tend to either be "best in class", i.e. similar to the nations normal mages, but better in some way, or else "breakthrough material", such as providing key access to a new magic path, or a cross path combo, etc.

2) Thug heroes - make a good thug. Most likely to go down in flames, but hopefully providing a nice benefit while they last.

3) Supercombatant heroes - Generally only if the nation has SC or near SC recruitables already.

4) Priestly heroes - Especially nice for nations with normally weak priests; an extra H3/H4 can go a long way, especially if you've got a large sacred component to the nation's troops.

5) Domsummoning heroes - is there an underutilized summon or troop type in the nation's roster? A domsummoning hero can get them into play. These tend to have lots of flavor text associated, and frequently a drawback quirk.

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

(2) Suppose the best recruitable mages of a nation have a maximum level of 3 in a path (or maybe 4 with a random pick) - what would be a good minimum path level for a mage hero if it is specializing in a particular path? Something like 4 or 5 maybe?

5 is really really unusual. If it gets 5, it should have very limited cross paths (maybe none.) Of course, if the nation's normal recruitable mages get 4 in a path, it may not be out of the question....

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

(3) For fighter heroes, having stats higher than the best fighter recruits of a nation seems to be a typical approach. What about taking the best recruitable fighter unit types and adding new abilities to them to create new hero unit types? Does starting with magical equipment (Enchanted Sword, etc...) count towards being a hero?

Heroes are quite likely to have picked up a few magical tidbits in the process of becoming heroic. A thug/SC hero should have something that stands out a bit from the normal recruitables for the nation.

Some possibilities:
1) Starts with one or a few magic items
2) Starts with useful self-buff (or paths to enable casting)
3) Starts with resistance to a normal vulnerability (e.g. an undead hero with cold-resistance for a cold-blooded nation)
4) Starts with a key unique advantage, such as glamour, immortality, or awe

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

(4) How close are awesome heroes such as Lugh the Long Handed to the upper limit of what is considered an acceptable hero? Should some heroes be good SC chasses? Should all fighter heroes be good thug chasses?

SC heroes are OK if the nation has easy access to SCs or near SCs, c.f Niefel, Hinnom, Ashdod...of course, they won't stand out as much there unless they're pretty over the top.

Originally Posted by analytic_kernel

(5) Should a hero be roughly equivalent to a mid-game summon? A late-game summon?

I'd say make them balanced and flavorful for the nation, and not compare them vs. summons.

[Gregstrom]

The Epic Heroes mod might provide some good material. The heroes in it might be a little more powerful than you want, but they're all interesting.