OT - EarthDawn RPG question

[Wrana]

Greetings!
Anybody who played subj probably remembers the presence of Theran "empire" in it. I personally see it as more of a political opponent of the kingdom where PCs most probably start (i.e., Throal), but tone of how authors say about it seems to indicate that they probably tried to make it as an archetypical Evil Empire.
Do you also see it as controversy? What do you think of it - maybe authors just failed to construct such an Evil Empire? Or tried to also make it logical and believable and ended with Not-So-Evil? Or is the tone in question just in-game Throalic propaganda (and authors there often make a good work in stylization)?

[Kristoffer O]

It was my brother that was GM'ing Earth Dawn, so my conception of them might be faulty.

I perceive them as an 'evil empire'. They dabble in blood magic, they have windling torturers and are generally inclined towards ruthless usage of slaves, both as labour and arcane batteries. They also seem to have an arrogance in their dealings with horrors. I think I view them as cynical/practical/realist enough to be considered evil by most, including Throal, standards.

[Wrana]

Thank you. But Throal standards are, I'd say, quite interesting from others point of view also (say, Cara Fahd orks ). (Let's not forget that they actually ruled Barsaive for Therans before - so I see the situation as more close to how India got its independence than how USA did, i.e., with empire lacking enough other bureaucrats to rule colonies for them if these don't want to.) Windling torturers I forgot, thanks.
While arrogance in dealing with Horrors (as exemplified by belief in possibility to protect whole metropolis from them - which turned out to be not quite so easy...), while may be foolish, doesn't make them evil per se.
What I mean - the picture seems to contain quite enough cynical/practical/realistic political entities (just as old AD&D Greyhawk did, to cite another example) which have complex diplomatic relationships, with such clear evil as that exemplified by Horrors. Such as approach I like. At the same time just one of these is spoken about as if it's an absolutely evil (which isn't the case with, say, Iopos - of course, Iopos doesn't have so much resources and so isn't percieved as so big a threat to Throal dominance in Barsaive... ). This looks somewhat strange to me so I want to know whether it's so for other players/GMs...

[VedalkenBear]

I think that the Theran Empire in Earthdawn is about as evil as you can be. They deliberately chose policies that led them to where they are, with full knowledge of what they were doing. I think the Theran position in Earthdawn is quite clear, from the lore.

[VedalkenBear]

Wrana: Between the Horrors and the Therans, I consider the Therans the worse evil. From an in-game lore standpoint, 'we don't know much about the Horrors'. For all 'we' know, the Horrors are acting in full accordance with their natures. I.e., we do not know if free will is a part of Horror make-up.

However, in the case of Thera, we can say that they are, indeed, endowed with free will (exemplified for the Earthdawn term for 'race', 'Name-giver'). As such, a society that, at least at one time or another, freely chose to institutionalize practices condemned _by its own society_ as wrong (cf. the making of the Sphinx that sits on Thera), shows its choice.

You can view Throal as having, in the past, collaborated with Theran rule. You can also view the same period as Throal preserving what freedom Barsaive still had while ensuring it had access to the Rites required to defeat the Scourge.

Basically, before the Scourge, Thera had the whip hand on _everyone_ for only they had the means to protect against the Scourge; i.e., the Rites. Anyone who chose another path (*coughcough* the Elven Court) suffered the penalty for their hubris. Thera systematically abused this advantage to create an Empire out of an opportunity. Throal wisely did not try to counteract fate, but rode it.

After the Scourge, Thera did not have the trump card that it did beforehand, and yet was so self-absorbed and convinced of its own superiority that it continued to act as it did.

[Wrana]

About self-absorbed and convinced of its superiority I can but agree. About considering Horrors lesser evil than Thera - I certainly don't! Even considering Deinarastas of Iopos I won't presume to say which is greater evil... %)

[Kristoffer O]

I'm inclined to agree. The argument that horrors are just following their nature doesn't fit my perception of evil. Evil is what is considered evil to mankind. Chaos, destruction of society and the causing of pain without a greater cause for society should be perceived as evil by most people. Thera might do some of these things, but they probably have a cause. Horrors on the other hand doesn't have a cause that is accepted by any part of any namegiver-race society. They might follow their nature, but that nature is by all namegiver standards an evil nature. Thus they are evil.

[Kristoffer O]

BTW Wrana, I like the stern look of your Avatar