Working underwater without gills

[sansanjuan]

In my last game I was pondering opening a second front on an opponent via an ocean path (I guess you might call it a “beachfront”). The game ended before I could implement anything but I was wondering what approaches others take when they have no indy amphibians. I did scan for a strategy guide for land dwellers working under the waves but didn’t see one. I was playing LA Arco and would be interested in how others would leverage their capabilities in a similar early game scenario. General “land nation” responses would be welcome too. I do recall there are a number of fatigue and other issues that can bite underwater thugging and magically water breathing armies.

Might be useful to hear of uses for taking that token “lake” province too. I know it can open up a number of useful spells. Curious how often players make a lake grab an important part of their strategy.

Holler if I just missed the post that covers these points.

-ssj

[Illuminated One]

That's really a great idea for a guide imo.

In one game I was built around a lake.
I needed half a year to get from my cap to a province two provinces away and the water nation (Agema) could raid me in 11 different provinces in just 1 turn.

Ironically I got a Barrel of Air from a lucky event so I just traded everything for getting me underwater, + used indies and attacked him sneakily.

He kicked me out of the water in less than 4 turns I think.
I guess I could have done better but even then it would have ruined me.


Some general points:

Since you need water breathing on every mage you can never field as much as him.

Many attack spells don't work at all and your enemy is unlikely to research evocation. This could mean that it's easier to build thugs, if you get something amphibian.

Mostly you get two types of underwater recruitables - chaff and heavy encumbrance - exploit that. Otoh many of the indie provinces allow you to recruit a lot of units quickly (low resource costs) and they are not much weaker than the recruitables of most uw nations.

Mobility - movement is limited to 1 province.
Just raid him and avoid his armies - he has a hard time catching you.

[MaxWilson]

For getting into the water: Wraith Lords. Bane Lords would probably work too.

(Semi-decent) Replacement for evocation battle magics: Rigor Mortis. Although unless I'm facing hundreds of enemies I usually just rely on Wraith Lord thugs.

-Max

[analytic_kernel]

In terms of equipment, I find that Wave Breakers (auto Friendly Currents, water breathing on wielder, respectable weapon, Con 4) are a worthwhile investment, especially if you're fielding poor amphibians or landlubbers. Bottles of Living Water are also nice to have. Nothing special against a similarly equipped army, but good for raiding.

[Aezeal]

basicly imho primary choices are:

- thugs, sc equiped with waterbreathing equipment or being undead
- lots of undead as troops
- a small focussed army of very very powerful (blessed?) troops with waterbreathing army equipment

most indies underwater are weak and won't hold up agianst national troops and you'll often have weaker watermagic too so be sure you invading force can get reinforced (long lines) or is just so strong you can use it to roll the enemy bakc into his capital

[Zeldor]

I was invading MA Atlantis as LA Agartha in Kingmaker. There are some things you can do, but they are quite limited:

- thugs/SC, first choice, but mobility here is a problem, so best is to teleport/trapeze them in
- elemental spam! that's the best weapon for uw battles [takes lots of gems though], so living water and living earth
- getting some really tough national troops [like heavy cavalry] with water breathing gear [pricey too]

Of course you want friendly currents and sharks on your side. And many spells work fine uw too, like disintegrate, soul slay etc.

[sansanjuan]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

I was invading MA Atlantis as LA Agartha in Kingmaker. There are some things you can do, but they are quite limited:

- thugs/SC, first choice, but mobility here is a problem, so best is to teleport/trapeze them in
- elemental spam! that's the best weapon for uw battles [takes lots of gems though], so living water and living earth
- getting some really tough national troops [like heavy cavalry] with water breathing gear [pricey too]

Of course you want friendly currents and sharks on your side. And many spells work fine uw too, like disintegrate, soul slay etc.

Thanks all for the lucid responses.

Any idea what additional per turn fatigue is incurred for heavy calvary working underwater? Thought there was a penalty but don't have my manual with me.

Are Horrors waterbreathing?

Any comments on the strategic importance of taking that "token lake" province?

-ssj

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by sansanjuan

Any comments on the strategic importance of taking that "token lake" province?

Sure, get a lab in there, and you can gateway prepared armies into the lake. Forcing your opponent to create water breathing items to get you out of the lake. Against nations that cannot branch into water paths easy, it really gives you a nice forward staging post.

Get the barrel of air and Sea kings goblet, and your teleporting, gateway, ferryman mage can transport a lot of troops. (The only problems are the lack of leaders in the lake, and the lack of leadership of most mages).

[sansanjuan]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Sure, get a lab in there, and you can gateway prepared armies into the lake. Forcing your opponent to create water breathing items to get you out of the lake. Against nations that cannot branch into water paths easy, it really gives you a nice forward staging post.

Get the barrel of air and Sea kings goblet, and your teleporting, gateway, ferryman mage can transport a lot of troops. (The only problems are the lack of leaders in the lake, and the lack of leadership of most mages).

I like your thorn strategy.

If I remember voice of tiamat (?) can be very nice for land site searching and is castable only underwater.

Water Royalty (underwater) can be sweet too. I believe one is amphibian.

-ssj

[Natpy]

Assassin with waterbreathing equipment.