Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?

[Frostmourne27]

As I said I would in the thread on wish-kidnapping, here is a poll on clam balance. Specifically, I am refering to massed clams. I can't really define where clam horde begins and 'a few' ends, but it's somewhere around the transition from site income to clam income, IMHO. If you think that's a lousy definition, use your own, unless its something like, 'a horde is more clams than commanders,' or some such stupidity. Please do not consider other gem producing items.

N.B. The first option is not a vote about astral magic, just that the astral pearls from clams are too useful for their price.

[jutetrea]

While not possible, I would like to see some additional limiting factor dependent on the current number of either clams in play or clams in the possession of the forgers nation.

Cost increase, path increase, reduction of income (1/2turns), whatever. I think anything over 50 is excessive, but they did have to spend the mage time and resources to get to that point.

If nexus is the problem, fix nexus. If wish is the problem, fix wish.

[Velusion]

The only people that will really notice the problem are nations that get into the late game of long games. Otherwise I'm sure they think clams are fine.

It really is one of those things you have to experience.

[Micah]

They're important and probably a vital strategy in a large game, but they're not unbalanced. Diversifying is important to the late game, and that means that everyone will have access to clams and/or blood stones at some point, and once they do the income disparity won't continue to grow between natural clam nations and ones that have to find indies or empower to pull it off.

So it can be an important, maybe even vital, strat for long games, but it's not unbalanced any more than researching is, which is also a pretty important strategy for the late-game.

[Velusion]

Micah said:
They're important and probably a vital strategy in a large game, but they're not unbalanced. Diversifying is important to the late game, and that means that everyone will have access to clams and/or blood stones at some point, and once they do the income disparity won't continue to grow between natural clam nations and ones that have to find indies or empower to pull it off.

So it can be an important, maybe even vital, strat for long games, but it's not unbalanced any more than researching is, which is also a pretty important strategy for the late-game.

Micah is correct, however it does come much easier to some nations than others.If you get unlucky with your indy mages it can be significantly difficult to catch up.

In longer games you do not want to be the one nation without a gem item factory setup in the late game. 60-100 astrals per turn is huge.

It's the fact that clam whordeing is almost a required strategy in a long game that is unappealing to many people.

[llamabeast]

Yeah, if people agree that clam hoarding is a necessary strategy for long games, I think that's really not good. No strategy should be effectively necessary, especially one that doesn't require skill and isn't really fun in itself.

[Ewierl]

I'm coming down alongside those who think clams are too good. (As are most of the other gem-producers, actually, clams are just simpler to talk about.)

I don't think the price per se is the problem, just the unlimited nature of them. 18-25 turns to get a return on your investment is ok, but there's no other real way in the game to make "investments" like that... and as anyone with a bank account knows, interest can rack up exponentially over time. While admittedly a kludge, the fix I like best is simply a cap to the number each nation can produce.

Plus, I find the "in-game story" argument also compelling. Why is the world not flooded with such things by day 1 of the Middle Age, if mages can produce items that replicate the natural burgeoning forces of the world? Why haven't all nations converged on Astral, Fire, and Earth magic, with secondary Water, Nature, Blood? The tactic is too good to make much sense in the setting.

[Hadrian_II]

Maybe the simplest solution would be to give the gem producing items a small (like 2%) chance to wear out, so that you cant have too much of them. If there would be a 2% chance, a clam would exist approximate 50 turns, so you pay 20 gems and get 50 back.

[Baalz]

Well, I do think clams are in a different class than blood stones and fever fetishes as they're much easier to mass and astral gems are much more useful late game than earth or fire. It's also wrong to think that it takes 15 turns for them to pay off - there are several ways to reduce this ROI time not to mention that astral pearls are often more valuable than water or nature. To be honest, I can't think of much more scary than R'yleh suitably turtled underwater keeping the Forge of the Ancients up for very long (or closely allying with someone who does).

The thing about clamhoarding is there is *no* counter and I think it's a mischaractarization to even really think of it as much of a risky delayed gratification in a lot of circumstances. For the cost of two clams (at whatever discount you can wrangle) I've now got one "free" mind hunt per turn as well as building long term exponential growth. Win-win in a lot of circumstances where water gems don't have a high value use.

My main problem with it is most everybody agrees it's so overwhelmingly powerful that everyone must do it if they want to be competitive, and it adds micro which most everyone hates. I look at it this way, would the game be more or less fun without clam hoarding? If its not really a tactical choice because everybody must do it in long games then removing it doesn't reduce your tactical choices it just reduces micro. Better than removing it though is to nerf it cleverly enough that it is more of a risky choice and therefore not a no-brainer.

[Reverend Zombie]

Baalz said:
My main problem with it is most everybody agrees it's so overwhelmingly powerful that everyone must do it if they want to be competitive,

Not everybody, at least among poll-responders.

It would be interesting to know how many of the nations listed as winners in the Hall of Honor clamnmed.