Engineers VS Fortifications

[Suhiir]

This thread is ment to get some discussion going on the subject.

We've all had to assault fortifications from time-to-time.

1) First any infantry unit has to pass a morale check.
2) Then the rule of thumb is (% chance of success = number of men in an infantry unit) (x2 if engineers).

Since most infantry squads are around 8-10 men, as are engineer squads this gives a 8-10% (or 16-20%) chance of a sucessful assault.

I'm wondering if engineer units should have a higher chance of success?

There's probably not much that could be easily done to increase their chance of passing the morale check (tho I've been giving engineer units a morale bonus for this, and other, reasons).

But they currently get double the chance for a sucessful assault. Don't get me wrong, this IS a significant advantage. But I'm wondering should it possibly be higher? x4 would (IMHO) be too much...but perhaps x3 would be reasonable as such units are normally specially trained and equiped for bunker busting.

Opinions?

[Imp]

I have no idea how it works (dont want to know) but if assault with a DC or suitable weapon assume it increases the chance.
From playing general note on how to assault bunkers.
Move adjacent any attack vs will not have a good chance as moving so do not assualt unless that units goal is to suppress. Depending on the situation if only moved one hex & the bunker is badly suppressed it may be worth risking an assault.
Really for a good chance of success start adj to it hit it with lots of firepower to suppress. Adjacent units can use the W key to select flamethrower or demo charge rather than assaulting. Now if that did not kill it esp if used FT the next attack has a very good chance of destroying it as probably routed or close to.
Doing it like this taking your time means 2 bunker busting type weapons DC FT etc will generally kill it, possibly one. Even if the bunker is very heavy & beyond your weapons capabilities you will start getting kill results on the men inside. It will soon fall but no need to wait just hit it hard & they will run out & surrender rather than wait for the next burst of flame to come through the slit.
The key is static or at the very max 1 hex move firer & suppressed damaged target, much like against a vehicle this improves your chances no end & a grenade can finnish the job.
Getting to eager & going for a kill attack before you are ready means its likely to fail so your unit is suppressed, if he is still suppressed next go thats another turn with a poor kill chance so do not assault it until its badly suppressed.
If you like think of as engineers make there way to bunker then takes them a few moments to get in position near a slit/entrance & send something through rather than a hasty lob.
Guessing on 2 attacks average to kill but not far off & helps presserve DC FT as you dont have loads, hope that helps

[RERomine]

In the age of modern weaponry, is an engineer the best option anymore?

[Imp]

No a tank can do the job most times or an RPG if talking later years.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Imp

No a tank can do the job most times or an RPG if talking later years.

That was my thought. By the time you get to about 1955, there are infantry AT weapons and tank guns capable of handling fortifications at something other than point blank range from the flanks or rear. The front is almost always vulnerable due to openings for weapons, but you also get shot at from those angles.

[Suhiir]

Everything said so far matches my observations as well.

I guess I wasn't clear in my first post as I was specifically speaking of assulting fortifications not just how to destroy them.

Sorry bout that.

[Suhiir]

Not so much "more susceptable to an attack" as likly to recieve more damage from a sucessful attack due to their state of supression.

And while it's true a supressed bunker isn't going to shoot back es effectively, or possibly at all, it can still take many many turns worth of attenpted assults to actually destroy them.

I rarely see bunker crews route...it happens...but VERY rarely from what I've observed. Perhaps it has something to do with my unit being adjacent causing the crew to not bail out...no idea...

Morale and experience definately are a factor but I was looking more at the "base" chance rather then any specific modifications due to nationality, equipment, morale, experience.

[Imp]

Only stating what I see to be honest had no idea engineers got an assault bonus at all but from when I first start attacking a bunker with a view to killing it barring outside interference I would expect it to be dead in 2 turns. On occasion 1 will be very resiliant but some fall straight off to. Using regular troops it can drag on but engineers have no problems dispatching reasonably quickly. The hard bits getting them there in the first place & keeping them in good order for a solid attack
No they dont route often but if its being problomatic you can force the issue & because you are adjacent so probably have cut off its escape route it often just surrenders.

If you just attack a bunker with one unit each turn & no support it gets to attempt recovery between each attack so any suppresion could well be mild. If you hit it hard on the first turn or even before going for the kill one attack will probably keep it heavily suppressed.
Applies to any attack hit a unit hard enough that its heavily suppressed & all you need to do after is take a shot at it after to keep it that way.