SC and Thug Diversity Project

[JimMorrison]

Well, this is about a mod concept, but please let the post stay here for a bit, as I want to gather ideas from everyone before I get started, including those who don't often look in the mod subforum.

Anyways, this has been discussed numerous times in the past, and I am ready to jump on it - A mod that introduces viable and cost effective Thug and SC chassis to all paths that lack them currently.

Basically, this is more for the large games, than the small games. In small games there are enough royalty and whatnot to give people a decent shot at getting something to work with. In a game with 20+ players, the people who do not shoot straight for Uniques, will generally always get locked out.

This mod will leave in the existing Unique royalty, but my current concept is to add in elemental "Princes" and "Princesses" who use the same models (hey, I'm cheap!), but have slightly reduced stats, and are somewhat cheaper. But I also want to include non-Unique SC chassis for Astral and Nature (probably use the Treelord graphic, and not sure what for Astral summon), and thug chassis for every path (other than Blood) that are comparable in cost/utility to Bane Lords.

Now here's the thing though - I want them all to be distinctly different, and have their own assortment of strengths and weaknesses, I'm not just going to copy Bane Lords and change the color, and call them "Astral Lords", that would be pathetic. So what I need from everyone, is some conceptual inspiration as to what would make a good thug for the various paths, and what will set each one apart from the rest. Also, if anyone wants to volunteer to do graphics for the thugs, it would be much appreciated, else I will recycle those from existing Dom3 sprites as well.

I've got some ideas rolling around, but I am here to take suggestions and requests! I want this to be a resource that makes large games more competitive and enjoyable for everyone.


Early Concept List:

Fire
Ifrit (Bane Lord level thug, flying, minor magic randoms in FAES, same slots as Djinn)
Balrog (King level SC, Fear, flying, high stats, few slots with "built in" gear)


Earth
Ogre Conquistador (Bane Lord level thug, random magic, full slots, low MR, replaces Ettin on my list after all)
Golden Centurion (King level SC, regen, high resistances, Mindless, full slots, no magic)


Air
Hototo (Bane Lord level thug, good general, Standard, full slots, no magic)
Adom (sub-King level SC, Ethereal, damage shield, only misc+hands)


Water
Sludge Animate (Bane Lord level thug, Mindless, Fatigue attack)
Olm Champion (between Bane Lord and King level? high stats, few slots, powerful buffing magic)
Marid (King level SC, Awe, high MR, strong mage)


Astral
Entropic Manifestation (Bane level thug, 4 arms, Fear)
Entity (Bane Lord level thug, fast, flying, multiple life drain attacks, few slots)
Archon (King level SC, higher stats, full slots, high MR, no other abilities?)


Nature
Brownie Trickster (size 1 assassin, fragile but Glamored/Lucky/etc)
Lycan (werecreature, Bane Lord level thug, stealthy, high regen)
Vengeful Treant (King level SC)


Death
Decomposing Reaver (Size 4 Mindless, minor SC comparable to Golem, though perhaps lacking any magic - Enchantment 7)

[Darkwind]

Something interesting might be a thug-type that already has high MR, Ethereal, Luck, etc. but poor stats elsewhere, maybe barely above humans, for Astral. A "Great Astral Spirit", maybe?

As for Nature, I think maybe something fairly mundane, with high Attack and Defense, but low-ish (for a thug/SC) MR/maybe morale. "Beastman", maybe (you could steal the graphics from Pangaea)? It might even have an extra Misc slot to represent that it has a tail to put rings and such on.

Just throwing these out there.

[llamabeast]

Just so you know, I've nearly finished a project with exactly this intention. There was a thread some months ago that I took inspiration from.

That's not to say you shouldn't do one too of course. The more the better.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Just so you know, I've nearly finished a project with exactly this intention. There was a thread some months ago that I took inspiration from.

That's not to say you shouldn't do one too of course. The more the better.

Hmmm, I didn't know anyone was actively working on it. It occurred to me that I hadn't seen any real discussion for a few months, and I had the inspiration today to really dig into it.

Out of curiosity, how many different summons are you implementing, and about how far away from completion is it? I agree that more summons can only be a good thing, I just don't want to discover that I am duplicating your work, when I'd rather be complimenting it.

[Omnirizon]

I don't agree with this project, not for MP play. I think the paths are attempted to be balanced. Giving air lots of good thugs would unbalance it due to all the good battle spells it has. On the other hand, Death is a little too powerful in this respect, while fire is a little too weak. so some tweaking could be done, but I don't think its a good idea to just add thugs to all paths wily nily. Air should not receive thugs I don't think.

[JimMorrison]

But the late game revolves around commander units. Commanders with distinctly powerful abilities, and far greater survivability to line troops. The current problem in MP now, is you either summon Tarts, you are into Blood, or you are Wishing Seraphs/Chayots/??. Yes you also have the royalty available, but when there are 20 players, and 12 royalty, you can see they won't make it far around the table.

The point is to provide options for everyone once their line armies start to become somewhat obsolete.

Honestly, I don't see where Air is any more powerful than any other path, in general. In the late game, most paths have ready ways to completely lay waste to entire armies - but few paths have something to supplement your strategy with, once your armies are vulnerable to wholesale slaughter.

[Micah]

Air is the one elemental path that is impossible to protect against in terms of armies...storm warriors will get you 50% resistance, but the damage is AN, so you still take damage. On top of that, the best army-wide prot buff confers 75% shock vulnerability.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Micah

Air is the one elemental path that is impossible to protect against in terms of armies...storm warriors will get you 50% resistance, but the damage is AN, so you still take damage. On top of that, the best army-wide prot buff confers 75% shock vulnerability.

I don't see this as reasoning that they should be hamstrung in the summons category. Hardly fair if the heavy Air nations get to be feared until the late game, then find themselves faced by SCs summoned by everyone else, whilst their armies get Earthquaked to death.

Shock damage is AN, but is overall less spammable than many other damage types due to the high Fatigue on Thunder Strike, and the lack of either a "Cloud" or "Rain" type spell.

Anyway, that's beside the point. This thread has nothing to do with the relative viability of any paths outside of summons - only to do with the relative viability of summons per path. Currently only Death and Blood have non-unique summons that you can base late game strategies around, and only Death has a strong and affordable mid-game thug chassis, in the Bane Lord.

Now if you want to argue that the Air versions should be a bit weaker overall, then sure, give suggestions of how to implement them in a way that provides better overall balance - but they are getting summons to fill holes in their rosters. But you know, I'm not going to give Nature and Water significantly more powerful summons just because they are less useful in combat - so I don't know what you expect.

[Omnirizon]

I think it would be neat to create a spell set to used in a game of _ONLY_ summons (master of monsters style. pa-dow)

[vfb]

Fog Warriors > Earthquake. Shimmering Fields is a large area lightning attack, great for Armies of Foo like Micah says. Wrathful Skies is a "rain" effect I guess.

Some Air nations also get their own national thug summons or recruitables. Astral also has non-unique summons that you can base late game strategies around.

I think that not having common thugs/late SCs in every path increases diversity of tactics. If every path can just make thugs and SCs, you'll see even less armies in the late game.