Useless or redundant units?

[Epaminondas]

Hi, first time poster--so please be kind!

Anyways, I have been playing the demo for a while now, and I am wondering why there are so many seemingly useless and redundant units. By "useless," I mean those units are so awful that you would hardly use them unless they are free; by "redundant," I mean those units that are not awful but whose roles are better served by other units.

Here are some examples of such units, and I am wondering if people agree with me or whether I am not using them properly. Further, I would welcome if people can suggest other units that may fall into this category--as I have only thus far played those nations that are unlocked for the Demo.

Let me begin with the two nations that I play most: Arcos and Kaliasa.

Arcos:

*Icaryds: What is the purpose of this unit? Given that Arcos lacks reliable missile troops, I can see why a flyer could help in the missile troops/mage suppression department in the early game. But we have two problems. First, Arcos does have a wonderful--if over-priced--flyer in the Wind Rider. Second, even considering that the Wind Rider is over-priced and cannot always be massed, the Icaryds are inadequate for the job. They have poor attack skills so they won't be able to kill much, and they have low protection (for Arcos), so they can't tie down enemy missile troops/mages either. Against a decent-sized army, they last basically one or two rounds, do very little damage, and then are obliterated. I suppose you can say they work as cannon fooder, but they are too expensive at 18g for that role as well. So what's up with these guys?

*Chariot/Chariot Archer: It isn't that these guys are horrible; they are subpar but serviceable. It's just that I don't see these guys doing anything that the Wind Riders cannot do and do it better. The basic problem is this: If you have a very powerful flying cavalry, why do you need a lesser cavalry? I do concede, however, that in later turns where cash is overflowing and you've maxed out your Wind Rider production, you could use these guys. But when you reach that point, wouldn't an HP 10 cavalry that is not a flier be obsolete anyways?

Kaliasa

*Markata Archer: These guys are absolutely the worst units I've tried to use. As with most super-cheap troops, they die fast. These guys are cannon fodder par excellence. The problem is, missile troops are not supposed to be cannon fodder. Or at least they should be able to fire at least one volley. But they often cannot even do that, because their small bow (the epitome of sucky weaponage) won't let them get off a volley, even when you stick them at the front of the tactical battle map.

I also feel the same about the Markatas. 5 HP melee-are you kidding me? I appreciate the need for cannon fodder, but 5 HPs with no protection is too little even for cannon fodder.

*Guhyaka/Yavana: I feel the sacred melees of Kaliasa utterly useless. The problem is their near-nakedness, their protection 1 armor or non-armor. Should 35g-40g sacred infantries be this vulnerable? Other than the fact that they are blessable, their basic melee stats are only marginally better than the considerably cheaper Bandar Swordsmen, other than the plus 5 HP and plus 1/4 Def (which is balanced out somewhat by the plus 9 protection the Bandar Swordsman enjoy).

Now possible solutions?

I don't see how the Icaryds can be improved without buffing them to the point where they become indistinguishable from the Wind Riders, minus the pegasi. Perhaps less is better in this case, and the unit should never have been conceived.

The Chariots need to be slightly buffed. How about adding about 3 HPs to account for the horses? As a related matter, I think all cavalry should receive such HP boost--which is consistent with the trend in other games where cavalry usually has more HPs than infantry.

As for the Markatas and Markata Archers, again, they are just too pathetic. Why not remove them altogether? The Atavis are comparable to the cannon fodder units of other nations.

Finally, the Yavana melees can easily be balanced by giving them *some* armor. I know it's hot on Kaliasa but even Indians (whom the nation is based, it seems) armor! Why not give them at least a leather equivalent?

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts, and please be gentle to a newb

[Quietly]

well, for arcosphale:
I do buy icaryds, because I use a mass pegasus strategy

pegasus knights are size 4, so only 1 fits in a square... however, a size 2 icaryd can fit in along side them, so after I have a surplus of money, or a screenfull of pegasus knights, I add icaryds, slightly more than 1:1 ratio of icaryd to pegasus, increases their damage output significantly, and dramatically reduces the amount they are outnumbered by, since you have 2 targets per combat square instead of one.

chariots trample, and presumably have a place when facing a mass of little infantry... sure the pegasus knights fight better one on one, but the chariots will clear people out a lot faster trampling all over them. I do think the chariot archers kinda are rather pointless =p

[Epaminondas]

Thanks for both points, Quietly. I had not factored in the Icaryds' smaller size and thus their role as a complement to the Wind Riders. Nonetheless, properly blessed, my Wind Riders hardly ever die in SP v. AI in the Demo. As for the Chariots, you are also right; they can get rid of infantry faster than the Wind Riders with trample. But then I tend to use an SC Pretender with the trample boots, so I guess that's why I didn't see infantry as a major issue.

[st.patrik]

I don't have answers for many of your points, but I think you're wrong about the Yavanas of Kailasa. With the right blessing these guys mop up in melee. The trick is just getting them into melee, which can be accomplished a few different ways, such as by having a screen of markatas in small groups out in front, and/or armoured Bandar warriors (which deal with arrows much better).

Try a water 9 blessing and screens of weaker troops to draw fire, and you'll be impressed with what the Yavanas can accomplish.

[quantum_mechani]

There are actually a lot of very redundant or useless units in dominions, however most of the ones you mention are not.

Icarids are indeed rather difficult to find a niche for, even with modding. Chariots are not really redundant with wind riders, but they are little overpriced.

Markatas are servicable for taking lance hits/decoying, and the archers are usable with flaming arrows.

The Kailasa sacreds are actually very good, so long as you protect them from archers with some air on your bless, or just lots of decoying.

[Talleyrand]

I will go through and try to find it but I remember one faction in the Early Age having two units that were exactly alike, down to their looks, costs, stats, and equipment pieces. It must have been a mistake to include them both.

[quantum_mechani]

Talleyrand said:
I will go through and try to find it but I remember one faction in the Early Age having two units that were exactly alike, down to their looks, costs, stats, and equipment pieces. It must have been a mistake to include them both.

Probabaly Helhiem's two Helhirdlings, the noncapital only one is indeed a mistake.

[Talleyrand]

Aye, I just checked. You're right.

[Nerfix]

Kailasas sacreds get Awe which is better than armor, and they have high Def from what I remember. And they can get blessed for even higher def or Air shield.

[Saxon]

The cheap monkey archers,the Markata, mass very nicely. Line them up against lightly protected troops and the volume of fire adds up. This can be useful for a quick start if you have milita in the provices next to your capital. Sure, anything can kill milita, but can they do it as cheaply?

Against heavily protected troops, the spell Destruction is very avalible for this nation and very effective. Rust Mist is not as quick, but lasts longer, so spamming the two in unison turn Helheim into light infantry, no matter what the blessing. The short bows also reduce your friendly fire, if you are using Bandar infantry with their protection.

And, as Nerfix said, Flaming Arrows is a lovely spell for this nation, though you probably have to get it via your Pretender. Wind Guide is also nice, but Flaming Arrows is better in my opinon.

Placement of this units is important, as they can run ahead if you are not careful. They are not powerful and need to be used as part of a larger strategy, but they are not totally useless.