My Strike aircraft targeting MY ammo trucks?!?!

[MikeD]

I'm a longtime player of the old Dos version, new to the Windows community.

I've just logged on to the forums and have not searched extensively yet, but I don't seem to have missed a discussion about having trouble with spotted (fire called from a forward observer) strike aircraft hitting their own ammo trucks and to a lesser extent SAM/SPAAA?

The designated target and my accidentally hit SAM/SPAAA do not seem to be on the same horizontal row, and the ingress point or angle of the aircraft does not seem to matter either.

So A-10's planned for in the deployment phase, called in from the opponent's upper corner, set to exit from the opponents lower corner, come streaking in over my side of the board and clusterbomb the bejezus our of my SAM's and the ammo truck parked alongside.

It happens for strikes called for on deployment phase 'pre-emptive' strikes AND during the game.

I've had the problem playing as the Russians, Americans, Japanese, and now the Brits.

Is this a bug or am I doing something VERY wrong?

If nothing else, is there a way to set my tanks to shoot back at the aircraft when they bomb the wrong targets?
Mike

[JohnHale]

MikeD: I gave up buying SEAD strikes (in the old dos:SPMBT) as they always seemed to take out my own SAMS........

Mobhack/Don: is there any way to get AAA gunners act as they do in real life, i.e. shoot at anything that flies and comes within range?

[MikeD]

The SEAD guys will target my SPAAA and SAMS, but the problem is mostly that the dedicated ground attack a/c will destroy my anti-air assets.

I never had that problem in the old Dos vers.

Mike

[narwan]

Hi Mike,

you're going to have to be more specific about this; I've been trying to recreate it but with no luck. I can't get my aircraft to target my own SAMs. What category of aircraft where you using? What type of weapons where they firing? What where the type of your own AAA assets? Etc..

[pdoktar]

If you have problems with the entry and exit points, you may have selected the entry and exit points of attack aircraft after you set a target hex for them to bomb.

I mean I had some problems with them, as I did it in the wrong order. So first select the rout entry and exit and then select the target hex and push the bomb button. Correct order is essential.

[Mobhack]

Also remember that the air in/out hex is a global data item, and is reset on game reload. So if you restart winSPMBT - remember to reset these to the desired values on reloading a saved game and before plotting new strikes.

If playing hot-seat against someone on the same box - then again the air in and out route may have been changed when your mate had control of the PC for his turn. So check it before plotting new strikes (or just change it randomly to do your opponent's head in, whether you have air strikes or not !

WRT the blue on blue issue - I'd like a nice simple straight forward example save game of this (before the air strike obviously! to debug, where the air is reasonably reliably going to do a blue on blue.

I have a feeling it is probably happening when the air strike is being plotted deep in the enemy rear zone and possibly any off-map scatter is then erroneously being wrapped round to the players own end zone ??.

But I will need a small example savegame in order to see what the problem really is.

Andy

[MikeD]

I realize there are an awful lot of variables here.

Quickly off the top of my head,I'll try some more details tonight.

In the last 2 games: Japan VS China, Japanese F15J's with clusterbombs attacking ammo trucks with type 87's in a ring around them, US vs North Korea: A-10's loaded with Mavericks and clusterbombs attacking Patriot sites ringing an ammo truck.
I can't be sure, but it seems they are gunning for the ammo trucks, then getting the SAM sites with the CBU's

There have been times however when an A10 will Maverick a SAM battery alone (usually, but not always after having killed our routed the ammo truck.)
I've been playing in the 2005-2010 range, vs the AI

It happens on "best guess" attacks planned in the deployment phase, after all of my units have been positioned.
I usually place all my units, then go back and call for airstrikes on where I think the AI will have onboard arty and troop concentrations.
At this point I have no 'red dots' for enemy locations, just a good guess.

Later in the game with attack helos spotting enemy units (so I know where the troop concentrations are even if the FO cannot directly view it) and FO's or FO vehicles actually calling for the strikes, it happens as well.

It does not seem to matter which direction the aircraft enter or exit the board from, but out of force of habit I call for the inbound leg of the strike, by using the 'display' button there on the arty strike page to call up the inbound/outbound arrows, then pick the target hex, then click on the appropriate aircraft to attack that hex, then I click on the exit route.

Pdoktar: I'll try it in your order later this evening and see if that helps. Inbound leg, outbound leg, THEN the target hex and aircraft.

Thanks,
Mike

maybe it IS just me...

[narwan]

No it isn't!

All the human vs human player tests I ran failed to get me friendly fire incident, but as soon as I switched to human vs AI I had 1 aircraft dropping it's load on my own troops. It did NOT specifically target them, just dropped it's ordnance on their location (which was way off the allocated area). Game was 2003, US vs North Korea, A10's (with mixed load including Mavericks) and Pariots with ammo carriers next to them.

Mike, did you have any aircraft actually target your own units or did it just drop it's ordnance on their location (ie was it attacking the hex they were in or the unit itself)?

[Mustang]

JohnHale said:

Mobhack/Don: is there any way to get AAA gunners act as they do in real life, i.e. shoot at anything that flies and comes within range?

This is a good idea. How about AAA with a low experience rating (soldiers with poor aircraft recognition training) and units with low FC rating (AAA units without IFF technology) have a chance at firing on your own aircraft? This happens all the time in real life.

[Basileus]

Danger close is a bad thing...

I hadn't heard of ADA units shooting down own aircraft with much frequency, but there were plenty of blue on blue airstrikes historically, even as recently as OIF. In the Korean War during the Pusan Perimeter fight, a British brigade tragically got hammered by a dozen American F-51s when the Brits set out their air recognition panel (big green cloth, IIRC) and the North Koreans on the hill opposite them set up an identical panel on their hill, which confused the pilots. ADA fire didn't drive them off, and they didn't stop until they were out of ordnance.

An interesting anecdote involving General Fred Franks during Desert Storm: his command helo goes way off course in the middle of the fighting, and he ends up over Iraqi lines without getting shot down. Pilot, realizing his error, heads back to friendly skies...but now, they would have to cross the front lines, unescorted, and there was a very real danger that they could get shot down by their own side. Fortunately for all involved, either our troops were too busy chasing the Iraqis, or they exercised excellent ADA fire discipline, he made it without a shot fired.

One more anecdote involving US Army HAWK batteries during the Cold War: apparently they worked out rules for flight vectors, altitudes, and airspeed for friendly aircraft so they wouldn't get lit up by own ADA. Flyboys being the rambunctious sort, however, our planes rarely followed the prescribed...but across the border, East German MiGs would perfectly mimic these secret flight rules over their side. May have been the impetus to improve IFF technology...

Basileus