Protection and Defense

[GrudgeBringer]

Just a quick question I never really thought of.

Is Protection and defense 30 the cut off point for them?

I mean if you have a protection 24 and have an item (or 2) and would make it 32 does it only get the benefit of 30 and you waste that extra 2 Protection?

OR is 30 only the highest number it will go to but the benefits can go higher?

Example...I have a Pretender that if I put Monolith armour should get a boost that puts it over 30 where if I use Jade Armour it hits 30 on the nose.

Besides the other benefits or detriments these have all things being equal it would serve me to use the Jade if the most protection is what I was striving for.

I take it Defense works the same way.

As long as we are going down that route how about a top for attack etc?

[Fantomen]

Protection can go up to 40.

[Micah]

And the GUI shows it capping at 40, so I don't see where all these other claims are coming from regarding ineffective additions, unless testing shows that it really caps lower, but I've never heard such...

[Jack_Trowell]

Don't forget that there are diminuting returns on protection when you combine natural protection with protection from armor.

If you add an armor with 10 protection to an unit with base 2 protection, the result should be 11 protection total, not 12 at you would expect.

I think that the formula is something like (greater protection value (between natural and armor)) + (lesser protection value)/2, but it might be something more complex.

[Amorphous]

As far as I know, the formula is
ap + np - (ap*np/40)
where ap is protection from armour and np natural protection.

There are different protection values for the head and body slots, though, so you have to click the protection displayed in the unit info screen to see the proper ones. The single displayed number is some sort of weighted average.

[Agema]

As per Amorphous' equation, getting over 30 protection is often difficult in practice. You generally need the spell invulnerability or some really massive armour (Aseftik's, Monolith). Most thug builds would probably top-out somewhere in the 20s.

I don't think Defence tops out either, but it stacks linearly.

Not including shield, starting at a maximum base skill of 15 (and not including shield): Quickness (+3), weapon bonus (up to +4), Chainmail of displacement (+3), gets you to 25. Experience can add up to +4, there are items that add to Defence presuming they stack (bracers +2, cat charm +4?) and heroic ability (+ whatever).

I would expect here again over 30 Def is vanishingly unlikely. That will partly be because there are much better ways to equip an SC rather than Def boosters: 30Def is made useless by all sorts of spells like earth meld, tangle vines, paralyze, and so on, and due to -2Def per attack, it quickly degrades if the SC is swarmed by many attackers.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Agema

As per Amorphous' equation, getting over 30 protection is often difficult in practice. You generally need the spell invulnerability or some really massive armour (Aseftik's, Monolith). Most thug builds would probably top-out somewhere in the 20s.

I don't think Defence tops out either, but it stacks linearly.

Not including shield, starting at a maximum base skill of 15 (and not including shield): Quickness (+3), weapon bonus (up to +4), Chainmail of displacement (+3), gets you to 25. Experience can add up to +4, there are items that add to Defence presuming they stack (bracers +2, cat charm +4?) and heroic ability (+ whatever).

I would expect here again over 30 Def is vanishingly unlikely. That will partly be because there are much better ways to equip an SC rather than Def boosters: 30Def is made useless by all sorts of spells like earth meld, tangle vines, paralyze, and so on, and due to -2Def per attack, it quickly degrades if the SC is swarmed by many attackers.

Really heavy Armor is more degraded by the fatigue bypass of protection (imo) than the -2 def.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Agema

I would expect here again over 30 Def is vanishingly unlikely. That will partly be because there are much better ways to equip an SC rather than Def boosters: 30Def is made useless by all sorts of spells like earth meld, tangle vines, paralyze, and so on, and due to -2Def per attack, it quickly degrades if the SC is swarmed by many attackers.

Err, no, or rather yes to the last postulate and no to the earlier "vanishingly unlikely" one.

There are several SC chassis that start out with extremely high defense and routinely sport well over 30 defense, the most obvious one being our friend, the Djinn, who starts with a defense of 20, hits 30 with ease with one shield and possibly a bit of experience, and is often seen dualwielding shields, but more generally any SC type unit devoted to anti-SC duties where not being hit at all by an opponent's weapon of doom takes on increased importance over being able to survive the weapon hitting you. (Fragile SCs like the queens of elemental air are other obvious candidates for stacking defense rather than protection). Shields like Shield of the Accursed are in their element here, as are Shield of Valor and Shield of Gleaming Gold.

There are lots of defense 15-16 chassis in the game, many good for a pair of boots of speed as part of their thug/SC duties, that will hit 30+ defense with a bit of experience under their belt should you be willing to invest in them and while it may not happen in your MP games, it certainly happens a lot in mine.

It certainly isn't the most common way to see thugs and SCs kitted out, but it has its place and isn't vanishingly rare.


As an example, here's my favourite anti-SC SC from an ongoing game (where his job is obviously to jump anybody using an SC or the like in my dominion). Everything is easily and cheaply replacable (except for the Mage Bane, which is in no way essential to making him exceedingly nasty - it just makes him even nastier versus his intended prey), and his high defense means that most SCs and even armies of normal units are likely to miss.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1889/antisc.jpg (picture is with an E4D4B4 minor blessing as prophet in dom 10 and with heroic toughness 56)

Any attacks that does go through his does not have to deal with much protection but does have to deal with 81 hp regeneration/round. Other armours used to counter whatever the opponents are fielding (resistances, even more defense, reinvigoration+even more MR - the hydra skin is just the basic fallback for the last ~24 hp/round). This one is definitely a "nuke with Gift from the Heavens" type of SC, for overwhelming him in melee with thugs/SCs (probably armed with morningstars if they want to hit) is likely to end up with the surviving winners horrormarked very feriously.

Which non-artefact shield would be a better choice for him in general than the Shield of the Accursed he is using? Some other shield might be better for specific niché uses, but that's what swapping equipment to better face known threats is for.

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

Err, no, or rather yes to the last postulate and no to the earlier "vanishingly unlikely" one.

There are several SC chassis that start out with extremely high defense and routinely sport well over 30 defense, the most obvious one being our friend, the Djinn, who starts with a defense of 20, hits 30 with ease with one shield and possibly a bit of experience, and is often seen dualwielding shields, but more generally any SC type unit devoted to anti-SC duties where not being hit at all by an opponent's weapon of doom takes on increased importance over being able to survive the weapon hitting you. (Fragile SCs like the queens of elemental air are other obvious candidates for stacking defense rather than protection). Shields like Shield of the Accursed are in their element here, as are Shield of Valor and Shield of Gleaming Gold.

There are lots of defense 15-16 chassis in the game, many good for a pair of boots of speed as part of their thug/SC duties, that will hit 30+ defense with a bit of experience under their belt should you be willing to invest in them and while it may not happen in your MP games, it certainly happens a lot in mine.

It certainly isn't the most common way to see thugs and SCs kitted out, but it has its place and isn't vanishingly rare.


As an example, here's my favourite anti-SC SC from an ongoing game (where his job is obviously to jump anybody using an SC or the like in my dominion). Everything is easily and cheaply replacable (except for the Mage Bane, which is in no way essential to making him exceedingly nasty - it just makes him even nastier versus his intended prey), and his high defense means that most SCs and even armies of normal units are likely to miss.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1889/antisc.jpg (picture is with an E4D4B4 minor blessing as prophet in dom 10 and with heroic toughness 56)

Any attacks that does go through his does not have to deal with much protection but does have to deal with 81 hp regeneration/round. Other armours used to counter whatever the opponents are fielding (resistances, even more defense, reinvigoration+even more MR - the hydra skin is just the basic fallback for the last ~24 hp/round). This one is definitely a "nuke with Gift from the Heavens" type of SC, for overwhelming him in melee with thugs/SCs (probably armed with morningstars if they want to hit) is likely to end up with the surviving winners horrormarked very feriously.

Which non-artefact shield would be a better choice for him in general than the Shield of the Accursed he is using? Some other shield might be better for specific niché uses, but that's what swapping equipment to better face known threats is for.

I can of course not speak for Agema, but I find it likely that he did not include a shield's parry value in the defence value, which you evidently do. The thing is that the parry part of the defence is not as good as pure defence. A shield hit is still a hit.

The added protection is nice, of course, but nowhere near as good as not getting hit. AP weapons halves the protection provided, AN weapons makes it irrelevant and as long as some damage goes through all sorts of nasty special effects still apply.

Your SC is a rather good example of the state of things, I think. It does have a high defence in the upper twenties, but a lower protection. A good shield makes the effective protection a lot higher in most instances, but 30 protection is still not that much considering it includes the shield protection. At the level of equipment indicated by his gear punching through 30 protection is rather easy. Just put him up against himself - he has a strength of 31. Using AP or anti-undead weaponry will make it even more effective.

Also, do not make too light of the Mage Bane. The weapon has one of the best defence values in the game. Without it he is much easier to hit.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

I can of course not speak for Agema, but I find it likely that he did not include a shield's parry value in the defence value, which you evidently do. The thing is that the parry part of the defence is not as good as pure defence. A shield hit is still a hit.

Do you have some sort of evidence that the parry part of the total defense attribute is not counted as part of the defense? My understanding is that it is added on top of the total defense (which already includes the shield parry attribute) for purposes of checking for a shield hit.

The reason that I am of this belief is that it seems to fit what I observe and that, in addition, that is how the mechanic is described very explicitly in the manual.

On page 75 in the manual, as the explanatory example, there's a Jotun Axeman vs a Black Centaur - the Centaur with defense 17, the Jotun with attack 9. Those 17 in defense includes +4 parry (the unit does indeed have base 14, -1 for armour+shield combo, +4 parry, for a total of 17). It is stated as an example how, if the Jotun rolls a total of 18 and the Centaur a total of 9, i.e. 27 vs 26, it is a hit exceeding the Centaur's defense by one and hence a shield hit because it is a hit that is below the defense value (which included the parry value) plus the parry value (which determined the interval in which to check for shield hits), and it would have needed to be five higher (i.e. 31) to be a normal hit. In other words, the defense roll is based on the defense attribute as you can see it in-game, shield parry included.

So according to the manual, at least, your interpretation is completely wrong and mine is right - but the manual has not proven without error in the past, and my observing what I expect to observe (the game working as is stated in the manual) is certainly no proof that it is actually doing so.

It is possible that it is generally "known" by the community that the manual is wrong and that things work differently and the shield parry isn't counted for complete defense, but I haven't come across this knowledge and, since the manual is generally trustworthy, I tend to trust it when lacking evidence to the contrary.

Do you have some sort of good tests showing that it works the way you believe to or word of god from our friendly developers (i.e. the standard "we think we implemented it this way, perhaps, somewhere in the code, I've forgotten where, I'll forget my own head next" or "the manual is wrong") on this issue?

Your SC is a rather good example of the state of things, I think. It does have a high defence in the upper twenties, but a lower protection.

The defense is in the upper thirties and the upper forties for checking shield hits... should I be right. Should you be right it is a great deal lower.

In either case, the protection value is poor - in cases where I expect many enemies to beat through it heavily, I do of course equip a heavier armour (Elemental Armor is always a favourite on SCs for general armour and resistance purposes).

A good shield makes the effective protection a lot higher in most instances, but 30 protection is still not that much considering it includes the shield protection. At the level of equipment indicated by his gear punching through 30 protection is rather easy. Just put him up against himself - he has a strength of 31. Using AP or anti-undead weaponry will make it even more effective.

Most certainly - I am not in any way, shape, or form claiming that it is a unit that cannot be defeated or won't take severe damage from thugs or SCs kitted out to deal with the undead - so long as they are capable of hitting it with some reasonable chance of success.

However, given that the hydra skin gives him about 24 hp/round and body protection 8, while an Elemental Armor would give him body protection 18, he needs on average to be hit more than 2.4 times per turn by attacks big enough to deal significant damage - and in a world with armour negating or penetrating weapons the advantage of the heavier armour with defense penalties dwindles even further, those 10 extra subtracted per attack may turn into 5 extra or even, worst case, 0 extra, boosting the value of the hydra skin considerably. (This all because of his outrageous hitpoint total - the frailer the target, the higher the value of protection over regeneration)

Also, do not make too light of the Mage Bane. The weapon has one of the best defence values in the game. Without it he is much easier to hit.

It is an incredibly good weapon for many reasons including its +6 defense - but again, unless I am shown to be wrong on the defense issue (in which case I may well weep a few manly tears), I'll keep on believing that his defense to be hit at all is closer to 40 than 30 and that the +6 rather than the normal +2 to +4 for most non-artefact swords he might be using instead, while certainly wonderful a another perk of a great weapon, isn't a major reason for his being hard to hit.