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Old October 25th, 2005, 03:06 AM

RedRover RedRover is offline
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Default MOD: Zulu

Zulu Mod: The Zultu Empire

This mod recreates a mythical Zulu-based nation (the name is a shameless combination of “Zulu” and “Bantu”). The nation is intended as a regional foe and opposite number to Machaka. The Zultu magic paths are essentially Air/Earth, with a small amount of Nature mixed in. The mod replaces Abysia in the lineup of nations.

Mod Note: Because the Inyanga wise woman translates most closely as the current Witch in the Concept Balance 5.0 mod, I’ll try to make the Zultu Empire mod compatible with that mod. In particular, the CB Witch has Healing ability, and this is an intrinsic part of the culture being modeled.

Historical Campaign Role: An early competitor against Machaka, the tradition-bound Zultu Empire was ultimately destroyed by the more vital nation.

Themes: Air Magic, Earth Magic, some Nature Magic, Lions, extremely mobile infantry.
Preferred Heat Scale: +1.
Strengths: Strong national troops. Strong Mages. Sacred troops. Healing. Wasteland and Mountain Survival. Sacred Lions are exceptional.
Weaknesses: No long-range missiles or cavalry. No real access to Astral, Blood, or Death magic. Strongest magic is capital only. Forced Sloth Scale –2 (can’t mod this, but testers should take note).

Home Site—Sacred Mountain (mod Smoulder Cone)
2A2E1N. Special Units: 87 (Storyteller), 89 (Sorcerer), 90 (Warriormaids), 923 (Sangoma priest)

Zultu—the People of Heaven
(Zulu = Zultu = People of Heaven)
As the Zultu are a blessed people, they receive a national bonus of +4 Protection and +1 MR, as befits their exalted status. Any sacred bonus stacks with the national blessing. Holy units and warriors of specialized cults are even more blessed.

Zultu Empire Battle Tactics
The Zultu army is organized into regular regiments, called Impi. The typical Zultu attack formation represents an attacking bull. A strong center (called the Loins) makes a holding attack. While the enemy is pinned, fast-moving units on both flanks (the Horns) close around the enemy, who is enveloped and destroyed. A reserve is often held behind the Loins, giving extra depth to the battleline.

God Notes
I haven't dealt much with modding Pretenders and am not sure how tractable the setup screens are. The Fire God templates of Abysia are not really appropriate for the Zultu.

I would definitely put the White Bull on the chassis list. Other than that, this is something to save for later.


The Approach
The first step to making the Zultu mod is to model the national military. As a military force, the Zulus were highly organized and disciplined. They were toughened by their environment and by rigorous training. It was reported that they could run 60 miles in a day and fight a battle at the end of it.

As always, we start from the base human stock.

Base Human
sz 2, hp 10, gld ?, res ?,
Prot 0, mor 10, MR 10, enc 3,
Str 10, att 10, def 10, prec 10, mv 2/12
Special: none

Legend: sz=size, hp=hit points, prot=protection, mor=morale, MR=magic resistance, enc=encumbrance, str=strength, att=attack, def=defence, prec=precision, mv=move.

The base Zultu is physically more powerful than the root human stock. Their warlike nature gives them bonuses to their attack and defense ratings. Their cultural bias against long-range missile weapons has resulted in a –1 penalty to their Precision. Their superb physical conditioning allows them great strategic mobility. Their connection with the land allows them to easily live in savannah, hot wastelands, and mountainous regions. They have an abiding distrust of dense forests and tend to avoid them. Great evil (such as the Machaka) dwell in such places.

Base Zultu:
sz 2, hp 11, gld ?, res ?,
Prot 4, mor 11, MR 11, enc 3,
Str 11, att 11, def 11, prec 9, mv 3/13
Special: Waste survival, Mountain survival.


Cultural Weapons (??? = number to be assigned)

21 Javelin: This can be used without change to represent the traditional Throwing Assegai.

315 Machaka Spear: The Zultu had a Great Spear, too. It is considered archaic and has generally been replaced by the stabbing Assegai. The Machaka Spear can be used here without change.

??? Assegai: New weapon. A short (4-foot) stabbing spear used for close combat.

??? Knobkerrie: New weapon (slightly upgraded club).

??? Bull Knobkerrie: A new weapon associated with a specialized warrior cult.

??? Sacred Lion Claw (29): Dmg 0, Att 0, Def 0, Len 0, res 0; magic weapon

??? Sacred Lion Bite (322): Dmg 2, Att 0, Def -1, Len 0, res 0; magic weapon


Cultural Armor

44 Furs: This is used without change to represent Skins.

105 Hide Shield: A small, rawhide shield, non-specialized.

112 Great Hide Shield: Traditional full-body shield, currently considered archaic, but used by some units.

??? Zultu Cuirass: New Armor. A recent advance, roughly comparable in protection to the Manchaka Plate Hauberk, but less encumbering.

??? Zultu Shield: New Armor. Smaller than the Great Hide Shield and handier in melee, it has become the standard shield used by the Zultu Impis.

??? Zultu Bead Cap: New Armor. A national special for certain magic-using Leaders. In a perfect world, this would be configured as a Magical Trinket (1A. Cost 5A). It is automatically assigned to some of the Zultu mages.

79 Zultu Feathered Headdress: New Armor. This is a national special, which has mostly the same characteristics as the Spirit Helm. Since we are unable to add it directly, substituting the Spirit Helm will have to do. (Note: If Machaka can start with Bane Blades, I don’t see any reason not to start certain Zultu with a Spirit Helm.)

Now, some basic troop and leader concepts:

Troops

Zultu Militia: These warriors are less experienced and somewhat worse equipped than in other impis. Assegai, Javelin. Hide Shield. Overall about equal to normal men.

Zultu Warrior: The basic Impi warrior. Might be positioned either in the Horns or the Loin of the Impi battle line. Assegai, Javelin. Zultu Shield.

Zultu Old Warrior: Older warrior (Loins warrior or reserve). These are the most experienced and tradition-bound warriors, slow to adopt the more modern equipment of the Impis. Machaka Spear. Zultu Cuirass, Great Hide Shield. Say -1 Str, mv -0/-1.

Zultu Leopard Cult Warrior: Specialized cult of stealthy raiders, armed with the Knobkerrie, carrying a Hide Shield, and armored in animal skins. Stealth (Pillage?) bonus.

(Technically, leopard skins should be restricted to commanders and royalty. However, the Leopard raiders were so cool I couldn’t resist. A more purist line would be to have Jackal Warriors, as in Zulu culture the Jackal has a reputation for cleverness and cunning, and does not have the bad reputation as a scavenger that it has in western cultures.

Also, I briefly considered having these shapeshift. But Vanheim and Mictland already have troops that do this, and I am reluctant to go the well a third time. I might reconsider if the nation tests out as too weak, but I would be extremely reluctant to do so if there was another option.)

Zultu Bull Cult Warrior: Specialized warrior cult, comprised of warriors of exceptional size and strength. Secret rituals enhance their toughness and bulk. Like bulls, they are extremely territorial and skilled patrollers. In the Impi battle line, they are nearly always deployed in the Loins. Bull Knobkerrie, Javelin. Zultu Cuirass and Zultu Shield. +1 sz, +2 hp, +1 Str, Mv -0/-1. Patrol bonus.

Zultu Lion Cult Warrior: This elite warrior cult is the most highly disciplined force in the Zultu Empire. They draw their strength from the totem sacred lions and wear lion skin cloaks into battle. Assegai, Javelin. Zultu Cuirass and Zultu +Shield. Prot +1, mor +2, att +1. Fear effect (–2).

Intombi Warmaiden Cult: These holy female warriors are led by Snake Priestesses. Secret rituals give them almost supernatural resistances. Knobkerrie. Furs, Hide Shield. –1 hp, -1 Str, +1 def. Berserker. Holy. Immune to Poison. Resistant to Fire (25%). Recuperates. Capital only.

Sacred Lions: See notes. Something like Summer Lions without the heat effect. Holy.

The Sacred Lions of Zultu
Based loosely on the Nemean Lion, these totem animals are large and exceptionally tough. They have a base protection of 12 (8 ?stoneskin? + 4 national protection) and regeneration. As holy totem guardians, they have the ability to defeat malignant spirits (their attacks count as magic weapons). In their role as a counter to the abominations of Machaka, they are immune to fire and poison. They can hold their own against most cavalry. (Pricing this one is going to be tricky, I think.)

Commanders

Zultu Scout: Stealthy. Javelin. Hide Shield. No leader.

Lion Master: Keeper of the Sacred Lions. Machaka Spear. Furs, Great Hide Shield. Holy, Heat/Poison immune. Poor Leader.

Zultu Induna: Regimental commander. Assegai, Javelin. Zultu Cuirass and Shield. Good Leader.

Leopard Induna: Stealthy regimental commander. Assegai, Javelin. Zultu Cuirass and Shield. Good Leader.

Zultu King: Bull Knobkerrie. Zultu Shield and Cuirass. Feathered Headdress. Exceptional Leader.

Zultu Inyanga (Witch): 1E1N (Healer). Female herbalist and wise woman. Quarterstaff. Poor Leader.

Zultu Sangoma 1A3H. Feathered Headdress. Quarterstaff. A principal tribal elder and councillor. Capital only. Poor Leader. Poor Magic Leader

Zultu Snake Priestess: 2H. Local religious leader. Some of these run the holy Intombi cult. Quarterstaff. Immune to Poison. Resistant to Fire (25%). Recuperates. Holy.

(Note: Technically, the Snake is evil in Zulu folklore, but a snake dance with poisonous snakes is traditional in Zulu culture. It is important to point out that snakes themselves are not worshipped, so a provision like a snake priestess turning into a snake would be inappropriate. That is a lammashta trick, and being both Death path and forest-based,it doesn't really fit.


Zultu Sorcerer 1A2N2?(random, same elemental). Quarterstaff. Bead Cap. Awe?. Capital only.
The random is a double, so there is a 25% chance to get 3AN2 or some lesser elemental combination. There is no chance to get 3N without empowering, nor will Astral, Blood, or Death magic results occur.

Zultu Storyteller 1? (random, any school) The storyteller is the repository of traditional stories and wisdom. Fist. Bead Cap. Capital only. +2 research.

Heroes (to be detailed)
Khekhekli (a slight corruption of the current leader’s name)
Shakala (a slight corruption of the founding leader’s name)
Umabatha (if you go net surfing, you will get a hit)


Unit and Leader Variations
These adjustments are added to the base Zultu in addition to adjustments for individual unit types.

Militia: –1 hp, –2 Pro, –2 mor, –1 MR –1 Str, –1 att, –1 def, mv-1/-1

All Warrior Cults: +1MR, +1Pro

Leader Adjustments

Fighter Ldr: +1 hp, +1 mor
Major Mage: -1str, -2 att, +1 prec, +2 MR, mor +2
Minor Mage: -1str , -2 att, -2def, +1 prec, +1MR, mor +1
Priest: -1 hp, -1att, +1 prec, +1 MR, +1 mor

Graphic Notes
The experience of a military unit can be seen in the amount of white on the shield; the more experienced the unit, the more white. Inexperienced units tend to have black shields. Shield are cowhide patterns. Thus:

Troops

Note: Tufted arm and leg bands should be included.

Zultu Militia: 75% black, 25% white. Simple circlet on head.

Zultu Warrior: 50% black, 50% white. Beaded circlet.

Zultu Old Warrior: 25% black, 75% white. Zultu Cuirass. Beaded circlet with feathers. Beaded loincloth.

Zultu Leopard Warrior: Shield has a leopard skin cover, warrior has leopard skin cloak. Leopard circlet.

Zultu Bull Warriors: 25% brown, 75% white, Zultu Cuirass, tall dark headdress

Zultu Lion Warrior: 25% brown, 75% white, Zultu Cuirass, lion headdress and cloak.

Zultu Intombi Warrior: Female. 100% brown (rawhide) shield, beaded circlet with feathers.

Sacred Lion: Recolor the Summer Lion, making it less red and more tawny/yellow.

Leaders

Zultu Scout: 100% brown rawhide shield. Simple circlet.

Lion Master: Machaka Spear, Great Hide Shield. Lion headdress with feathers.

Zultu Induna: Shield as Warrior. Headress with feathers.

Leopard Induna: As Leopard Warrior, but headdress with feathers.

Zultu King: Albino leopard cloak. Headress with large plumes.

General Note: Zultu bead patterns indicate social rank and standing--fascinating info can be found.


Next time, I’ll do the math and finish mapping the units against the Abysia recruitment screen.
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  #2  
Old October 25th, 2005, 03:32 AM

quantum_mechani quantum_mechani is offline
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

Quote:
RedRover said:


Home Site—Sacred Mountain (mod Smoulder Cone)
2A2E1N. Special Units: 87 (Storyteller), 89 (Sorcerer), 90 (Warriormaids), 923 (Sangoma priest)

It is not possible to mod sites.
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Old October 25th, 2005, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

However, I think Smouldercone has no gem income and allows recruitemnt of at least Warlock and Demonbred, and probably some others too (Warlock Apprentice, Lava Warrior?). Notice the unit numbers; I think they stand for these four units.

The Blood of Humans Smouldercone would allow for one more capital-only unit (Slayer becomes capital-only). However, that can't be used as the sites can only be referenced by their name, and the first match is used... This makes it impossible to duplicate some themes like Blood of Humans or Return of Raptors.


The site "Land of Pleasures Unattained" gives one gem of Earth, Air and Nature, and increases Turmoil. If there is no spesific reason to go for Sloth, why not have forced Turmoil, and really force it upon the home province? The only Sloth-increasing site seems to be Valley of Shame (1 nature gem, but both Sloth and Turmoil).

Will the Sacred Lions be magical units? With this and having Lion Master able to lead magical units, one would need either a mage or a Lion Master to lead them... This would also let one to give them higher magic resistance.

I'm not sure why Storyteller is capital only. Is this due to preset number of capital-only commanders from Smoulder Cone?
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Old October 26th, 2005, 12:17 AM

RedRover RedRover is offline
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

QM: I haven't actually tried modding a site, but thanks for the info. My understanding has been that you can't change the site name. I thought it was possible to substitute units if the site already created them, and I thought it was possible to redefine gem types as long as the number of gems didn't change. If this is wrong, I'll just have to find another workaround.

Endoperez: Thanks for the input! In my current game (default Abysia), the Smoulder Cone is in fact providing 5 Fire gems per turn.

You are correct that the numbers in front of the new units are the unit numbers of the Abysian units that the Smoulder Cone creates. I have started, but not completed, mapping the new units over the old units.

I do know that themes cannot be modded, and never really seriously considered using the Blood of Humans version of the Smoulder Cone.

I'm not wedded to the idea of making any particular unit capital only--this is mostly a byproduct of the specific site Abysia has. The fact that it would create certain dynamics (like restricting most of the casters to the capital) is in my view a happy accident that can be exploited, not necessarily an intrinsic part of the design.

More worrisome is the impact of not having the slots available (3 leader, 1 troop). My previous experience has been that the Recruitment screen is hardwired so you can't have more troop types or more leader types than the original nation had (though you can have less).

It already looks like two of the leader types I listed in the first post won't fit, and if I lose another three, I'm not sure what I can do about it.

There's no real reason to go for Sloth, other than the practical reason that Zulta units will be extremely resource-cheap, and the thematic reason that hot-climate cultures seem to develop high sloth levels. Not wedded to any solutions, so thanks for the heads-up on specific sites.

I'd have to think about Turmoil. This setup's need for gold is part of the balance fine-tuning, I'm thinking, and I'm reluctant to narrow the options this early in the design process.

For the Sacred Lions, I'd rather keep them non-magical, though I could probably be pursuaded to make them magical. I think of them more as monsters like Trolls or Gryphons. My preliminary expectation is that the nation might be too weak to be viable without the lions, and that making the lions magical might make them too vulnerable to certain countermeasures.

This attitude might also be colored by the fact that in a recent game I cast Gift of Reason on a Summer Lion with the goal of creating a unit of Summer Lions led by a Summer Lion. The resultant commander had only two misc magic slots, and with no misc item that commands magic beings, the whole project was a disappointment.

As for the storyteller in the capital, yes. The only reason I picked him was that I had to put someone in the capital slot, and in my judgment he was the best candidate.

Incidentally, it looks like the Leaders that get cut are the Induna and the Scout. The Leopard Induna can perform both functions, and if the Recruitment screen is hardwired like I think it is, I lose two commanders off the original list. I would love to hear that I have it all wrong.
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Old October 26th, 2005, 12:46 AM

quantum_mechani quantum_mechani is offline
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

Quote:
RedRover said:
QM: I haven't actually tried modding a site, but thanks for the info. My understanding has been that you can't change the site name. I thought it was possible to substitute units if the site already created them, and I thought it was possible to redefine gem types as long as the number of gems didn't change. If this is wrong, I'll just have to find another workaround.


You can modify the units the site allows you to recruit, but not the site itself (gem output type and amount, image, name, extra effects).
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Old October 26th, 2005, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

Have you used #addunit and #addcom -commands? Using them after #clearrec does let one to define any number of units and/or commanders AFAIK.
As five fire gems/turn certainly won't fit, I think you should see different nations' starting sites, without forgetting the themes' sites. I have listed all that seem to fit

The best ones IMO:

Lykeion and Akademeia of Golden Era Arcoscephale offer the recruitment of 4 capital-only commanders (1070,1071,1072,1083) and 1 capital-only unit(1082) without having gem income attached into them.

Man has Forest of Avalon (comm:212, unit:64,65) with 3 nature gems, Tower of Avalon (comm: 151,152,153) with 2 air gems.

Mictlan and Machaka would have some nice sites, but Mictlan blood-sacrifice-reliability can't be modded and replacing Machaka would take out the chosen enemy...

Other possibilities:

Vanheim: Vanhalla (com:948, unit:261) with 2 Air, The Halls of Andvare (comm:323, unit:463) with 3 Earth.

Ulm: Black Temple (unit:738) and The Keep of Ulm (comm: 113 unit: 66) without gem income, Black Forest (comm: 1011, 1028) with 1 Astral and 1 Nature. 1028 is Wolfherd, but to change the summoned creature you'd have to mod Wolves and change Summon Animals, Howl, the two artifacts, etc.

Pangaea: Hidden Grove (comm:516) without gem income.

Pythium: Swamps of Pythia (comm:296, unit: 91,719) without gem income.

Tien Chi: Celestial City (comm: 793 unit:791) with 1 Earth gem. Also some other sites that give Death income, but I quess those are out.


With many capital-restricted commanders, have Lykeion, Akademeia, Land of Pleasures Unattained, and either Silver Stones or Singing Stones. Both of them produce one 1 gem of both Aid and Earth. Result:
Zultu replaces Arcoscephale, start income: 2A, 2E, 1N, forced Turmoil in home province, 4 (or 2 without Akademeia) capital-only commanders, and one capital-only unit. 3 Heroes IIRC (replacing Maker of the Mace, Monster in the Mace, Son of Titans; heroes' names can't be modded, unfortunately).

Man could also work. Man's heroes work a bit different, so you could change Knights of the Stone and give them different #nametype, and they would appear with those names. There can be maximum of 13 of them at the same time IIRC.

There is a pretender god, Mother of Lions, who appears into battles accompanied with several Great Lions. They can't be modded without changing Summon Animals, but she could still be modded to be Zultu-spesific pretender. Using #resttrictedgod would limit her only to the nation you choose to replace with Zultu. She would also make a great Lion Master, but I don't think you could remove her from the pretender selection. You could still make Zultu the only nation with the new Lion Tamer as a pretender.
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Old October 27th, 2005, 01:26 PM

RedRover RedRover is offline
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

Endoperez: Yes, I used the add commands back when I was doing the Grey Elf mod. I had to cut a few commanders/units out of that mod because it wouldn't let me build more of either than what Caelum had. On the other hand, I may not have used #clearrec, because I wanted the winged elf holy troops to have the "Fly in Storms" ability, and I think the #clearrec would have erased that.

Wow! You have put together a truly impressive list of sites! I knew you couldn't mod themes, but I thought that also meant you couldn't use the theme sites. This opens up a whole new field. Can't wait to get started.

Can you mix-and-match capital sites from more than one nation/theme? Can more than one copy of a capital site appear on the same map, or are they sealed in some arcane fashion?

I agree that Golden Age is probably the best fit overall, but, on the other hand, the Golden Age is probably a contemporary, since in theory the Zultu were wiped out fairly early.

Man is probably the next best fit. I wonder if using the Knights for the Sorcerer is too harsh. It would be interesting to have a fixed-sized wizard circle, but that might really kill the nation on a big map. Thirteen is quite a lot though--I can't remember building that many major wizards in any of my own games.

I am somewhat drawn to the Celestial City, but T'ien Chi has been modded so many times that I'm reluctant to add another mod to that list.

Great food for thought. And you are right--Death magic is definitely out for this nation.

Thanks for the heads-up on Mother of Lions. She sounds fine as is--and Great Lions are welcome, too. I'll think about a dedicated Pretender. First though, I'd like to get the core troops up and rolling.
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Old October 27th, 2005, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

#clearrec doesn't affect units' abilities, it only applies to units a nation has access to (can recruit from every castle). I think you confused it with #clearspec, which would take all special abilities away from a creature...
Also, if you hit some kind of a maximum value, I don't think it was from the nation. When I made the Unit Replacement/Null Mod series, the different nations could replace each other almost any way. If Ulm can replace Abysia and Abysia Ulm without there being any chances I could notice, there should be no problems with adding units.

You can't use different nations' sites, but you can match sites from the themes. If you modded e.g. Warlocks of Smouldercone, you would change Abysia's capital-only units too. Also, I think only Abysia (or modded nation replacing it) would be able to recruit the units from Smouldercone, regardless of who starts with it. However, there are few annoying restrictions to using themes' sites. Man has two other sites in its Last of the Tuatha theme: one is named "Forest of Avalon" (the same as the base theme one), the other "Avalon". Only Avalon can be added as a site, because Forest of Avalon finds the first FoA, the one for the base theme, and there is no way to make a difference between them.
Also, you can't actually have the Zultu appear as a theme. You can use the Golden Era's sites as you can use any other site in the game, but you can't mod a theme with the nation modding commands.
You could replace all the units/commanders with modded ones, but it's not worth it, as modding normal nations using the theme's sites gives you much finer control over the result. However, I think Golden Era would still show up as a theme under the chosen settings... It'd be an interesting theme if themes were moddable, though, because it has forced Sloth scale.

I quess using the Knight heroes as a template for Sorcerers would be all right. The sorcerers needn't be much better than your normal ones, though. The chance to get them isn't very big even with Luck 3, but 13 Angerbodas or even Blind Ones would be a bit much. And remember that some people use forging Clam of Pearls, massing up Astral income of hundreds and chain-casting Wish as a strategy on the big maps... Some people do recruit more than 13 high-tier mages.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 02:40 AM

RedRover RedRover is offline
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Default Re: MOD: Zulu

I just wanted to post a quick update here. Things are going slowly. I'm putting together an alpha .dm file and will be checking stats carefully with that before putting them up here. I will be using #clearrec and putting the Induna and Scout leader types back in.

I've decided (reluctantly) to go with an Arco overwrite for the Dom2 version. The current starting sites are planned: "Land of Pleasures Unattained", "Singing Stones", and "Lykeion."

After looking closely at the way shields are structured, I think I may have given the Zultu Shield too much. The first test version will use Prot 2 instead of Prot 3. It looks to me like any sort of nonmagic Hide/Leather/Wicker shield should have a protection rating of 2 and no more if historical baselines are to be observed. I think good history anchors good fantasy, so the tweak.

Also, I'm changing some weapon names: all "Guardian" become "Magic." The latter is both more accurate and shorter. Two virtues. Purely cosmetic? Ultimately utilitarian, IMO.

The name files are up to 135 male/140 female. I'll quit at 200 each.

The more I look at the Leopard Cult, the weaker they look to me. I'm changing them to Sacred for the first version. If it doesn't work, I can change it back.

I have gone over the gods with an eye toward matching the CB 5.0 mod. This mostly affects encumbrance, but I'll leave all these changes marked red next time I post stats. There were a few changes in point cost, and some alterations to base stats/skills. Also, all the lion-heads get the new Roar instead of Bite, except the White Lion, who gets both. Also, the CB changes to the Crone pretty much took the niche I put the Leopard Warlock in, so I had to readjust this Pretender more than others.

I had some ideas about how to get decent graphics for the mod, but they have all fallen through. For the time being, I have Oceania sprites plugged in...
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 03:49 PM

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Default Re: MOD: Zulu


The research and themes of this mod are great! I think that is something that many other mods are missing, they don't have the 'depth' of the standard nations.
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