Standard special ability, totally pointless?

[Meglobob]

Okay, just been reading about Standards on pg. 57 of the manual and how utterly useless they r. Why bother even having them in the game? As far as I can tell they r a waste of programming time...

It all sounds really good ie...+10 standard gives a +1 morale bonus to every unit in 10 squares, great, not bad could stop units routing, especially if u have several standards.

Then the killer, "morale boosted by standards will be lowered by 1 per round and can never exceed +5", which really makes them utterly pointless does'nt it?

Feel free to point out if I m in error...

[Arralen]

Sorry, but I just have to:

*put rant mode on*
I have to admire your ability to apprehend to morale system in its full delicate complexity.
I mean - the beta testers didn't, the manual writer didn't, even the programmer (!) only does when he's acutally looking at the code, but is notoriously unsure otherwise ...
But you can tell from a quick glimpse at the manual that the "Standard" ability is utterly useless and "a waste of programming time".

Next time, if you suspect something in Dominions to be "totally pointless", simply assume that you've overlooked something fundamental and important - there are very few somewhat pointless things in Dom3, but those can be fixed by rebalancing them (even via mod), and nothing that is "a waste of programming time".
*rant mode off*


Now, simply assume that the standard boosts the moral of (strenght) number of squares with +(strength) morale each turn, just as if a priest was casting "sermon of courage" - does it still look utterly useless?

Have you considered that the effect from those morale boosting spells might be temporary as well, and that the troops might get out of range of the priests - but the standard bearer is among them?

Still looks utterly useless?

Not to me ....

[Meglobob]

Nice rant Arralen. Hangover? Row with the Mrs?

BUT

U give very little in the way of explanation or improved my understanding on this matter. Of course it can be modded to have a greater effect and is useful as a game mechanic in this way. But without a mod its useless.

Arralen says:-

Now, simply assume that the standard boosts the moral of (strenght) number of squares with +(strength) morale each turn, just as if a priest was casting "sermon of courage" - does it still look utterly useless?

I understand that a +10 standard, gives all units in a 10 square radius +1 morale in round 1, then in round 2 its lowered by 1...ie...no more effect whatsoever.

In order to make standards useful the, "morale boosted by standards will be lowered by 1 per round", should be simply removed.

[Twan]

A +10 standard give +1 morale to all units in a 10 radius *each round* so in round 2 the units still at range will still have +1 morale (+1 -1 +1), when the units out of range will have +0.

With 5 standards, the units in range would have +5 morale and the units out +4 the first round out of range, +3 the second, etc... So better to use several.

edit : if my interpretation is correct

[Arralen]

Meglobob said:
Nice rant Arralen. Hangover? Row with the Mrs?

Several things

U give very little in the way of explanation or improved my understanding on this matter.

There isn't much more I can do then ...

Arralen says:-
Now, simply assume that the standard boosts the moral of (strenght) number of squares with +(strength) morale each turn, just as if a priest was casting "sermon of courage" - does it still look utterly useless?

I understand that a +10 standard, gives all units in a 10 square radius +1 morale in round 1, then in round 2 its lowered by 1...ie...no more effect whatsoever.

What's so hard to understand about "every turn" ?

Of course it can be modded to have a greater effect and is useful as a game mechanic in this way. But without a mod its useless.
In order to make standards useful the, "morale boosted by standards will be lowered by 1 per round", should be simply removed.

Actually, both is not necessary if it works on a per-turn basis.


There are some things I'm not sure about:

- The area of effect. All other effects are measured in "areas of effect" as "squares which are affected", not radius. A +10 standard would effect 10 random squares around the bearer then, not everything within a radius of 10 squares (what would be little bit much with 121 squares, if you think about it)

- The decreasing of its effect over time. IIUC all the morale modifiers from spells (and items/abilities use 'spells' too in terms of game mechanics, AFAIK) are supposed to be temporary. But I've yet to see the morale bonus from "Sermon of Courage" go away again.

[Gandalf Parker]

Wouldnt +10 with a no more than +5 be to cover possible negatives to morale which might be operating in the area? That would seem to me to be a defense against certain special abilities that others might have.

[Nick_K]

Well, I still don't have the full Dom3 so I could easily be wrong, but wasn't sermon of courage changed in Dominions 3 to be a permanent (i.e. for a whole battle) effect that could only affect a unit once in each battle?

[ceremony]

Arralen said:
The area of effect. All other effects are measured in "areas of effect" as "squares which are affected", not radius. A +10 standard would effect 10 random squares around the bearer then, not everything within a radius of 10 squares

You are correct. That is how I understand the Standard ability to work.

Arralen said:
But I've yet to see the morale bonus from "Sermon of Courage" go away again.

It is a battle-long effect.

[alexti]

Meglobob said:
Then the killer, "morale boosted by standards will be lowered by 1 per round and can never exceed +5", which really makes them utterly pointless does'nt it?

Nope, it just prevents morale accumulation. As long as standard bearer is staying with the troops it effectively gives you +1 morale. Without decay you would have morale of surrounding troops going up to +5. For example, for Jotunheim standards are very useful. They don't have numerous troops, so they're easily covered by standard area and those giants [aware of being so expensive] are pretty cautious and usually try to avoid the battle they could easily win if there's a risk of getting a scratch. Standards help to fix this problem.

[Cainehill]

alexti said:
For example, for Jotunheim standards are very useful. They don't have numerous troops, so they're easily covered by standard area and those giants [aware of being so expensive] are pretty cautious and usually try to avoid the battle they could easily win if there's a risk of getting a scratch. Standards help to fix this problem.

Problem being that Jotunheim's units are big so only one fits into each square, meaning that they wouldn't be easily covered by a standard. That's probably one reason why they don't _have_ a standard bearing unit.