Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)

[WraithLord]

Putting together some various bits and pieces of information I'm starting to come up with a somewhat disturbing big picture.

What I know (based on AARs and discussions in this forum),
1. SCs are nerfed. Life drain only drains 5 first hp and only recover fatigue. Buffs are nerfed (they come with a vulnerability price tag). Morale is changed so that SCs can route if wounded.

2. Mages are nerfed. Range for many damage dealing spells is reduced. Favorite spells like quickness, relief and false horror (to name a few, probably there are more) are nerfed.

I assume that there are probably more changes towards those two directions. I'm starting to get worried about this:
First, I don't see why (or rather don't like the fact that) mages and spells got nerfed across the board in dom-III. Mages were already expensive enough in dom-II and their usefulness was severely limited by their frailty (in general, there exceptions of course). IMO nerfing mages them takes some of the fun from the game.

Second thing that for me is more disturbing yet more difficult to pinpoint, I am always wary when game developers start to take the nerf route to balance. As I see it, balance in complex environments such as strat. games can be achieved in two opposite ways, simplicity and complexity. Simplicity is making more factors and mechanisms work the same way (IMO, AOW-SM is a good example for a game that was heavily based on this approach). Complexity is achieving balance by making any given strat. useful in a very specific (not common) circumstance and counterable by a given set of counters. This can be achieved in games that are reach with features and mechanisms.

I think that dom-II has achieved pretty good balance in that approach. No given strat. was overpowering due to the complexity of the game and the existence of many counters. Even SCs that ppl have complained a lot about have many counters (stealth armies, Anti SCs, SC killing spells to name a few). I love dominions for being a complex and rich game in which balance is achieved not in obvious ways. I consider nerfing to be an easy way to achieve balance that, if used excessively, can take a lot of the fun out of dominions. I am worried that my favorite game will go that path.

[Nerfix]

Well, the severe Quickness nerf was rather extreme, but then again, Quickness + spell spamming was considered a pretty much must-have tactic.

I do have my concerns, namely Astral magic being even more deadlier, Water & Fire magic being even weaker and some nations suffering excessively from the spellcasting nerfs or not having sufficient ways of countering enemies due magic restriction, but I don't have the game so I can't judge...yet.

EDIT: But bottom line is, Dominions players have always managed to find ways to adapt to the game.

I vaguely remember the time when Caelum was considering weak in Dominions I, and then someone came and beat everyone with it. Black Forest Ulm was considered worthless in Dom II, then people started using VQ's. Spring and Autumn was considered a weak theme of a "hopeless" nation, and yet people had succes with it. False Horrors replaced the elemental spam of Dom I. Servants of Darkness came in place of teleporting a Sphinx on top of your enemy.

I'm sure the players will be smart enough to adapt to the new situation.

[WraithLord]

Nerfix said:
Well, the severe Quickness nerf was rather extreme, but then again, Quickness + spell spamming was considered a pretty much must-have tactic.

I do have my concerns, namely Astral magic being even more deadlier, Water & Fire magic being even weaker and some nations suffering excessively from the spellcasting nerfs or not having sufficient ways of countering enemies due magic restriction, but I don't have the game so I can't judge...yet.

EDIT: But bottom line is, Dominions players have always managed to find ways to adapt to the game.

I vaguely remember the time when Caelum was considering weak in Dominions I, and then someone came and beat everyone with it. Black Forest Ulm was considered worthless in Dom II, then people started using VQ's. Spring and Autumn was considered a weak theme of a "hopeless" nation, and yet people had succes with it. False Horrors replaced the elemental spam of Dom I. Servants of Darkness came in place of teleporting a Sphinx on top of your enemy.

I'm sure the players will be smart enough to adapt to the new situation.

I agree about this, but it isn't my concern. My concern is about specific changes that I dislike (like quickness) and more generally that the nerf "sword" may have been applied too freely and severely in the name of balance.

[WraithLord]

About life drain change I have read some comments on the proposed change but never was certain about the exact details (the last comment I've read is in this forum at, http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...5&o=2&fpart=1)

@Kristoffer, Thanks for your response, I find it reassuring.

And seriously, there's no way I'm not going to enjoy dom-III anyway

[Sindai]

Dominions 2 was hugely unbalanced, Dominions 3 will be also, just in different ways. You can't balance a game with over a thousand units and hundreds of spells and items. That's what makes Dominions great.

On the other hand, it's just common sense to make clearly "best" tactics that hinge on a couple of overpowered spells or items less powerful in the next iteration of the series. Who wants to play exactly the same game forever?

[BigJMoney]

1. Life drain needed to be reduced. I saw WAY too many SC builds using life draining weapons, meaning most people thought it was "best". Besides, it makes no sense that a weapon drains more life because someone is stronger. It's the magic in the weapon that does the draining, not the creature! The protective spells having weaknesses is great, because it's a built in Achilles heel that requires you to alter your strategy a little. You have to simply be careful which ones you use, that's all.

2. I bet none of us will miss mages with quickness once we play Dom III. Again, it is one of those lame strategies that is simply too good. I mean, who WOULDN'T want their mages casting 2x as many spells? I do agree that reducing the range of combat spells would be poor judgement. Mainly because it will necessitate more battle micro-management. I never thought the elemental spells were too powerful, and I thought astral magic was powerful enough in Dom II. I never used false horror, so I have no comment.

=$=

[Tyrant]

Whenever i get a new game and go looking for the path to Ulitimate Power i start my search with four things- flight, invisability, life drain, and speed. The nature of these powers makes them hard to balance, and smart game designers are right to examine them closely. Wraith's post is very articulate, and I understand his worry, yet I do think he jumped the gun. Life drain did need a nerf, and quickness was at least worth a hard look since it makes the quickened unit twice as good, more or less.

In a game as wide as this one, true balance is not a realitic goal. Better goals are to try to make sure that there are many viable strategies and few useless features. DomII did a fine job on the first, and the second is less important.

Now here is my worry about balance in 3. Sounds like differntiating the nations was a big design goal, and that ups the ante on balance issues. In DomII there was an evolution during a given game away from your store bought troops and mages such that if you made it to the late game you likely had a little of nearly everything. If that's less true in 3 it raises the chances of bad match ups (ie there's a counter to your enemies plan, but you can't do it), and means that new nation stuff itself needs to be thouroughly thought out and tested.

[WraithLord]

Sindai said:
Dominions 2 was hugely unbalanced, Dominions 3 will be also, just in different ways. You can't balance a game with over a thousand units and hundreds of spells and items. That's what makes Dominions great.

On the other hand, it's just common sense to make clearly "best" tactics that hinge on a couple of overpowered spells or items less powerful in the next iteration of the series. Who wants to play exactly the same game forever?

I agree with the second part of your statement. though I would have liked it if sometimes instead of nerfing there would have been an additional counter to a "best" tactic. For example, quickness may have been balanced by a slow spell or a spell that deals damage only to quickened critters etc. Nerfing as the sole key to balance makes things more boring (imho).

As to the first statement (dom-II is unbalanced), I think it requires a closer look. What do you mean by unbalanced?- Most of the nations and themes were balanced, and each successful strategy had it's counters. I have played countless hours both SP and MP and it never failed to amaze me how for each great strat. that I've found there was also a counter.

Tyrant said:
Whenever i get a new game and go looking for the path to Ulitimate Power i start my search with four things- flight, invisability, life drain, and speed. The nature of these powers makes them hard to balance, and smart game designers are right to examine them closely. Wraith's post is very articulate, and I understand his worry, yet I do think he jumped the gun. Life drain did need a nerf, and quickness was at least worth a hard look since it makes the quickened unit twice as good, more or less.

Thank you for both the compliment and the critique
Sure, I may have been to early to state my worry, but my opinion is that its better to bring things into the open rather than harbor them. I agree about life drain, yet about quickness I still have some doubts, after all its use was offset by fatigue and, to top it,it was one of the key spells to the otherwise relatively weak water spell school.

Tyrant said:
In a game as wide as this one, true balance is not a realistic goal. Better goals are to try to make sure that there are many viable strategies and few useless features. DomII did a fine job on the first, and the second is less important.

Now here is my worry about balance in 3. Sounds like differentiating the nations was a big design goal, and that ups the ante on balance issues. In DomII there was an evolution during a given game away from your store bought troops and mages such that if you made it to the late game you likely had a little of nearly everything. If that's less true in 3 it raises the chances of bad match ups (ie there's a counter to your enemies plan, but you can't do it), and means that new nation stuff itself needs to be thoroughly thought out and tested.

Ahmmm... I find your concern quite plausible, hopefully the community will help report such possible bad match ups, so that they get fixed in patches.

All in all, I'm very encouraged by the replies here. They represent a very good attitude and keen insight, so I'm positive that the game is in good hands.

[ceremony]

WraithLord said:
Life drain only drains 5 first hp and only recover fatigue.

Why do you think this?

[WraithLord]

ceremony said:

Why do you think this?

Thanks for the correction. It appears that they do not recover fatigue. This makes the change even more nerfing than I thought.