Quad AA.

[chuckfourth]

Hi
I think I may have found something interesting relating to these two weapons from the USA and German OOBs. Here are the current in game statistics.
Weapon______________________________Acc_______Kill ____Range
Weapon 215 "50cal Quad AAMG"________23________22________40
Weapon 007 "2cm FlakVierlng"________16________18________30

Interestingly the single 50 cal cal gets a Kill of 11 and a single 20 mm AA also gets a Kill of 11. However when the same guns appear in quad mode the 50cal Quad AAMG kil value is doubled to 22 but the 2cm FlakVierlng only gets 18?

For the vierling though cyclic ROF can be quoted as low as 1400, effective ROF is usualy 800
See
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...-38&sbid=lc06a
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/arm/arm27.htm
http://www.tarrif.net
But heres the killer the 50 cal has an effective ROF 40! that translates into 160 RPM for the Quad!
Dont believe me? see
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/milsci/7-8/78appb.pdf tip(search for "M2 (.50 CAL)")
and from
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Qu...83/page30.html
we have
"11. What is the sustained rate of fire of the .50 Cal?
40 rounds or less per minute"

Note also that the barrel change for 50cal Quad AAMG occours after 6 mags ie 120 rounds.

Why such a low ROF for the Quad 50? Because the 50 cal doesnt have a quick change barrel! (20cm Vierling does)
from the latter sight,

"17. When should the head space on the .50 Cal machine gun be checked?
-After replacing the barrel
18. Head space adjustments on the .50 Cal machine gun is correct when what conditions are met?
-The recoiling groups are fully forward
-There is no independent rear ward movement between the bolt, barrel, and barrel extension
-The no-go gauge does not fit in the T-slot, and the firing gauge does fit
Timing must be checked and/or set each time head space is set
20. Timing on the .50 Cal machine gun is correct when what conditions are met?
-Firing takes place when the recoiling parts are in the correct position for firing (between .020 and .116 inch out of battery)
-When the gun fires on the Fire gage, and does not fire of the No Fire gage."

Certainly not quick change. So the gunners choice is to really lower his ROF to keep the barrel cool or fire fast and lose a lot of time changing the barrels.
So the Quad 50 gets 160 rpm compared with the 20 mm Vierlings 800 rpm.
If I do a little math on the Kill values. Assuming the 20 FlakVierlng should be 22 and using the diferent ROFS to get a ratio we calculate the Quad 50s kill value as 800/160 * 22 a kill value of 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is of course ignoring the fact that the 2cm FlakVierlng is firing HE and the 50 cal fires ball.

So even though the vierling has a Higher rate of fire and fires High explosive it gets a Kill factor of 18 compared to the Quads 22?
needless to say the quad outranges the vierling which is also incorrect.

Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

"When should the head space on the .50 Cal machine gun be checked?"...........


OK, how's this sound.

I have a large patch to produce for MBT and it will be released in the next 10 days. There is a small patch for WW2 that will follow at the end of the month and then both Andy and I are taking a bit of a break. It would appear on the surface that perhaps you may have a point but before I simply charge in and make changes I have to review ALL 20 mm guns in the game and ALL 12.7/50.cal type weapons and ensure that whatever I decide *MAY* need changing doesn't in fact cause another post like this to pop up later on from an equally disgruntled soul with a new axe to grind

However, The chance of that happening this April is somewhat similar to a snowballs chance in hell but rest assured I will keep this on file someplace and if/when we decide to carry on forward it will be looked into

However.....

I will refer you to the MOBHack help section that details how things are put together. Specifically the "Multiple Weapons" section

Single slots that are meant to represent more than one multiple of a weapon use the following multipliers:

*
2x is 1.5x HEK
*
3x is 1.75x HEK
*
4x is 1.875x HEK

So when a weapon has an HEK value of 10, and you want to convert it to a twin weapon (for example a single and a twin AA gun) you would multiply the HEK by 1.5 to have a total HEK of 15.

Now perhaps someone has tweaked either of these guns at some point but the single 50 cal AAMG is an HEK 11 and that times 1.87 = 20.57 so rounded up it should have 21 and not 22 but this is why just changing things becasue someone says it should be done is "problematic". The single german 20mm flak is rated 10 HEK and 10x1.87 =18.7 rounded up it should be 19 not 18 so at most by our own processes we are 1 too high for the 50 cal quad and one two low for the 20mm quad so at the very least I will someday look at correcting that in all the OOB's that use those weapons.

HOWEVER what you perhaps have forgotten is that in the game a gun with.......lets say a 18HEK.... and a warhead of 2 does somewhat more damage to a target than a gun with a warhead of 1 and the an HEK of 22 so simply looking at HEK numbers and saying we are out of line is in itself, out of line. The bigger the warhead the more damage it causes. A very important point to remember.


Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Ah you got me there, I was looking at flak 38 which has a kill of 11 but I see flak 30 does indeed have a kill of 10. And again yes I had looked at WH size but had forgotten it by the time I posted.
But still the very low ROF of 50 cal is an interesting turnup. I can't see that it can really put out the same sort of sustained fire that a water cooled or quick barrel change 7.62mm weapon can and so maybe should have lower rather than higher acurracy and kill factors? Help is a bit elusive about accuracy and kill values I'd be interested to know how these values are arrived at.
Make sure to enjoy your holiday.
Best Chuck.

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants

[chuckfourth]

Hi Baggypants
Thanks for replying.
Yes my apologies, when I say mags I mean cans. The site I sourced this from said that there was 120 rounds per can, close enough to your 110.
Ive been talking about "practical" ROF you mention cyclic ROF for 50 cal of 400-550, actually flak 38 has a cyclic ROF of 200-450 and vierling of 1400-1800 (sources vary). So you could safely say that for game purposes the two weapons have the same cyclic ROFs, However my point is that the practical ROF of 50 cal has to be lower than the vierlings as the 50 cals barrel isnt swapped out.
This site details the "on and off" firing you mention.
URL REMOVED BY REQUEST FROM SITE -- NO LONGER VALID
"Describe the Rapid method of fire on the M2 .50 Cal.
Rapid fire consists of more than 40 rounds per minute, fired in bursts of five to seven rounds, at 5- to 10-second intervals."
So "Rapid fire" still only gives you at best a practical ROF of 84 still well below the vierlings practical ROF of 200.
Also we should be aware that the barrel becomes soft and hence bent and innacurrate well before "shoot through". so using cyclic ROF means you will very shortly have a useless weapon.
I would suggest that the detailed Rates of fire arnt for officers but for soldiers that are so tired they cant think and can only rely on whats been drilled into them at training in order not to "burn out there barrels", ie five to seven rounds, at 5- to 10-second intervals.
If by volume fire you mean accuracy it would appear to me that accuracy should be higher for the vierling than the quad as even though both have a similar cyclic ROF the ability to swap out the barrels in the vierling must give it a much better Practical ROF.(as sources would seem to confirm) and hence much better "volume" fire.
The ROF for both weapons doesnt matter during aircraft engagements as the targets are fleeting anyway. But for the common in-game useage as a type of sustained fire heavy MG the practical ROF becomes much more important than the cyclic ROF.
Effective ceiling for the flak 38 is quoted at 2200m

but Im more interested in the comparison af a 50 cal with say a MG42. what do you think?
Point to note
being hit by a 12.7 or 7.92 round is going to put you out of action either way.
MG42 puts a lot more rounds on target, (250 vs 84 per min)
so does it follow that
MG42 should have a better accuracy rating than the 50 cal?
MG42 should have a better Kill value than 50 cal?

Also of interest in-game the British 20mm hispano cannon firing ball gets the same Kill value as the German 20mm MG 151 firing HE, 10. This seems wrong to me.
Best Regards Chuck

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants