Monkeys cry for changes?

ano · #1 May 13th, 2008, 07:42 PM

This is mainly a question to developers. I think that after Abysia and Ulm have been reworked, time for monkeys has come (I mainly mean Bandar Log and Patala but Kailasa as well in some aspects). The fact they are the only nation (Atlantis had some as people said but probably also needs some reworking) that has no victories in MP in all eras speaks for itself.
What I see in them...

Pros:
- Versatile magic (patala)
- Huge clam producing potential - they can produce both clams and hammers either with their summons (Bandar) or with initial mages
- Good summons and access to all magic but fire and death/blood (though the latter can be reached via spells derived from Lanka)
- Strong Astral (Bandar). Combined with clam producing potential and good summons looks very nice.
- Access to elephants (helps early on but is useless later)
- Decent sacreds, recruited everywhere (Bandar) however this is almost negated by weak priests

Cons:
- Very low MR. All monkeys have MR 8 which is abysimal. I can understand 9 but 8?... Does any else race in MA/LA have such MR? This can be partially countered by access to Antimagic but it is still very bad.
- Abysimal PD. I don't think that monkey PD is the worst one in the game (Giant PD is probably worse) but it is still very bad and can stop virtually nothing.
- Siege penalties of animals. I understand why a wolf or a hawk suffers a penalty during sieges but why does a skilled Bandar warrior? Bandar have no troops without "animal" tag.
- Guru and Rishi have mapmove 1 which means VERY low mobility even with astral
- Weak priests (level 1) which makes bless strategies almost useless
- Weak battle magic, weak magic versatility without summons (Bandar)
- Guru and Brahmin have morale 7(!!!). Bug? (found by Drake49)

So.. Don't you think these races cry for changes?

llamabeast · #2 May 13th, 2008, 07:47 PM

I don't think Bandar Log or Patala are weak. I think most experienced players don't think they're weak.

If you are interested, search for posts by Lord_Bob, since _many_ of his posts were in his ridiculous and very long "monkeys CANNOT WIN" threads.

Sombre · #3 May 13th, 2008, 08:17 PM

MONKEE PD IS WAEK, AND YES CAN NEVAR WIN N TAHT IS Y U WILL LOOSE 2 ME LOL!!!!!!

MaxWilson · #4 May 13th, 2008, 08:30 PM

I've never played the monkey nations, but doesn't Astral imply Communion? Why aren't the monkeys throwing around Divine Bless? Do the priests not have Astral?

-Max

Baalz · #5 May 14th, 2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

llamabeast said:
I don't think Bandar Log or Patala are weak. I think most experienced players don't think they're weak.

I agree. They take a little more subtlety to play than the average nation, but with elephants, strong astral and very strong non-unique summons they've got obvious good options for early, middle and late game. With a little bit of cleverness/luck they've got a bunch more options from awesome blood summons to recruitable/easily summonable national thug chasises.

Natpy · #6 May 14th, 2008, 03:53 PM

I agree with Baalz. Blood summons is a key.

atul · #7 May 14th, 2008, 03:57 PM

I'd hardly call it a key.

Additional asset after those astral magicks, elephants and summons is more like it.

Of course you could take the KB route, but it's hardly, erm, competitive.

Though, siege penalty hurts. But it just means some trading for siege bonus items will be necessary. I hope.

Natpy · #8 May 14th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Of course elephants and astral magic give a good start, but the problems begin already at the end of the second year. At this moment there are not ehough gems for good summons. But in case of the right development and pretender one is able to summon the first Dakini

lch · #9 May 13th, 2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

ano said:
The fact they are the only nation (Atlantis had some as people said but probably also needs some reworking) that has no victories in MP in all eras speaks for itself.

And it is back! The already-debunked argument that doesn't care about facts to make a point. I did the unspeakable and won by Kailasa! And I had a grand time while doing so!

ano · #10 May 13th, 2008, 09:00 PM

Then probably I'm wrong. Actually I was speaking mainly about Bandar and Patala.

Quote:

I've never played the monkey nations, but doesn't Astral imply Communion? Why aren't the monkeys throwing around Divine Bless? Do the priests not have Astral?

-Max

Eeeh.. Probably because their only priest is equal to the standard indy one in all aspects but costs 10 gold less and has 7 morale.