Paralysis is overpowered.

[Adept]

Hello everybody,

I've been playing Dominions with my gaming group since the original. Our latest game drove home how overpowered the paralysis spell is. I don't think it's functioning quite like it's meant to.
(Christoffer asked me to make a thread about this to see what others think).

[first some background]
Our latest 4 way game on a large (120 province) map run close to 130 turns, before we declared it a three way tie. I've never seen this much high level battlefield magic, summons and artefacts in play. What I saw, is that paralysis, cast by humble Astral 2 mages was the bane of supercombatants. Even when we were equipping our pretenders and other SC's with enough gear to get MR 24+, they get paralysed, and then it's all over.

I don't have a problem with them getting paralysed as such, but even on a high MR Size 6 creature, the paralysis practically always lasts 20+ turns. That, is the problem. In effect, Paralysis has the same effect as Soul Slay, unless you win the fight.

I'd be fine with Paralysis if it would last a more sane number of rounds. Maybe d6 + the extra power the caster has, maybe even an open ended d6.

What do the rest of you think?

[Herode]

I'm not MP-experienced enough to have a very
extensive insight on the problem. But I've recently seen Paralyze used/spammed (via Paralyze or via Mind Blast) in 2 occasions : once against an opponent, once against me. In both cases, I've been surprised but the number of turns (>20 !!!) a big unit with high MR (namely : a god) can be crippled... and promised to a pityful death.

OTOH, it may just be a question of (un)luck. But the fact is that I will massively try to use S2 mages ASAP in the future

I think that

I'd be fine with Paralysis if it would last a more sane number of rounds. Maybe d6 + the extra power the caster has, maybe even an open ended d6.

could be a good patch.

[K]

There are plenty of cheap ways to kills SCs with less research and/or paths, and paralysis isn't even one the best ways so "no, I don't think it's overpowered."

In general, I think most people always declare anything that hurts SCs as "overpowered." Since I don't want SCs to become the only end-game tactic, I'm in the other camp. I think SCs should have a place in the game, but not the dominant position that people who invest heavily in them would like.

[Baalz]

I've always felt paralyze is a bit overpowered. A single S2 mage is enough to really bring down any thugs/SCs not boosted with MR gear, and with light of the northern star even S1 mages can spam it. I think your suggestion on the effect length is a good one.

[konming]

Isn't soul slay more powerful? If you can do light of northen star, a simple reverse communion by enirely S1 mages can spam soul slay as well. Against heavy astral nations, I felt MR27 should be standard.

[Jazzepi]

I think, also, part of the problem may lie in the fact that MA/LA R'yleh has access to cheap paralyzers.

Jazzepi

[Baalz]

My feeling isn't so much that there aren't lots of other ways to kill SCs, it's that paralyze shouldn't basically be a kill. Not at 2S and that low a research level. I'm gonna go ahead and throw down that gauntlet K, what is a better way to kill a SC with less research and or paths. Without using gems go ahead and show me how a mage with 2 magic in whatever paths you want can stop a SC with less research than paralyze using a PD screen. Heck, even using gems there's not much short of high research that can't be fairly easily countered by the right immunity.

From a thematic point of view it seems much better to me to think "We paralyzed the cyclops! Lets quickly try to kill it before he recovers" rather than "We paralyzed the cyclops! Whew, lets get a drink and then set up a rotation chipping away at him. I'll take the first shift."

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by Baalz

My feeling isn't so much that there aren't lots of other ways to kill SCs, it's that paralyze shouldn't basically be a kill. Not at 2S and that low a research level. I'm gonna go ahead and throw down that gauntlet K, what is a better way to kill a SC with less research and or paths. Without using gems go ahead and show me how a mage with 2 magic in whatever paths you want can stop a SC with less research than paralyze using a PD screen. Heck, even using gems there's not much short of high research that can't be fairly easily countered by the right immunity.

From a thematic point of view it seems much better to me to think "We paralyzed the cyclops! Lets quickly try to kill it before he recovers" rather than "We paralyzed the cyclops! Whew, lets get a drink and then set up a rotation chipping away at him. I'll take the first shift."

The challenge was thrown down for K but I accept it. SPAM HORROR MARK!

[K]

Originally Posted by Baalz

My feeling isn't so much that there aren't lots of other ways to kill SCs, it's that paralyze shouldn't that basically be a kill. Not at 2S and that low a research level. I'm gonna go ahead and throw down that gauntlet K, what is a better way to kill a SC with less research and or paths. Without using gems go ahead and show me how a mage with 2 magic in whatever paths you want can stop a SC with less research than paralyze using a PD screen. Heck, even using gems there's not much short of high research that can't be fairly easily countered by the right immunity.

From a thematic point of view it seems much better to me to think "We paralyzed the cyclops! Lets quickly try to kill it before he recovers" rather than "We paralyzed the cyclops! Whew, lets get a drink and then set up a rotation chipping away at him. I'll take the first shift."

Ok-dokey. Here are a few examples of comparable MR resist spells that are good when you've mages spamming them:

I've killed an enemy SC god using Rage in an MP game. He turned and killed most of his own army before they killed him. F2 at Thaum 3. I didn't even script Rage.

Sleep is mighty effective if you have a few guys spamming it. N2 at Thaum2.

Decay, while hard to actually hit anyone with, can do the job as well if the battle is long and he's not undead or lifeless.

If you don't like the MR-saves spells, we can go back to Astral for Starfires. It's armor negatingm kills with real damage and comes in at S1 at Evo1.

If you are lucky and your enemy SC is Astral, you can can do Magic Duel at S1 at Evo3. Sure, you may lose a few S1 mages before the rolls favor you, but it can be worth it to kill an SC (I've killed fully-kitted golems in MP with S1s before).

And, if none of those are right for you, Vengeance of the Dead comes in at S3D1 and Thaum4. It's a little more expensive than Paralyse in terms of mage paths and gems but it's the same research cost and it kills things dead pretty well.

I'm not saying that any of these are perfect, or even as good as in as many situations as Soul Slay or Paralyze, but they are comparable and the counters to them are all the same: don't overuse SCs or thugs. Considering that Astral is very weak early on against most enemies, it compensates by being good against SCs and thugs.

The one thing that really gets me is that every time someone whines "oh no, it's unbalanced because it kills SCs" then people seem to ignore that the fact that the same tactic is almost useless against a regular army.

[Adept]

[quote=K;634015]

Originally Posted by Baalz

My feeling isn't so much that
The one thing that really gets me is that every time someone whines "oh no, it's unbalanced because it kills SCs" then people seem to ignore that the fact that the same tactic is almost useless against a regular army.

Stop insulting people please. Nobody is whining. You are putting words in people's mouths and burning straw men.

Other than that, interesting replies.