Soliciting Opinions on Vision Enhancement

[Suhiir]

I'm sure this has been discussed (probably to death) before but I'd like to solicit some opinions.

Using the Cost Calculator we get the following :

US Marine Fire Team (4 men, 1/103-12/114)
M16A4 Rifle (105 ammo)
M249 SAW (90 ammo)
M203 GL (12/4 ammo)
M136/AT4 B (2 ammo)

with 0 Vision = 20 points
with 10 Vision = 23 points
with 20 Vision = 26 points
with 30 Vision = 30 points
with 40 Vision = 100 points

While I'll be more than happy to admit Thermal Vision (40+) is a HUGE advantage (specially under the
right circumstances) I'm a bit concerned about the cost of it on infantry, specifically small infantry, units.

Is the same exact unit worth five units with no vision enhancement?
Is it worth three-and-a-third between 30 and 40 vision?

As with any such question there will, of course, be as many opinions as there are people reading it.
Can we keep this civil and toss some ideas about just to get a feel of what folks think of the issue?

[Marcello]

Noting that I do not play that much (I prefer fiddling with Mobhack or drawing maps) I neverthless think that giving 40 vision to an infantry squad isn't cost effective. But why are you asking this? Are miniaturization efforts regarding thermal imaging to the point where it might be used for standard issue NVGs?

[Pats]

I think it is indeed a huge advantage and worth the cost.
Especially against hostile infantry.
And don't forget the vision 40 is only available later in the game when a good tank cost around 400 points

[Marcello]

The issue is that an US infantry squad has weapons whose range typically do not exceed 10 hexes, while a tank gun or an atgm can shoot much further, fully exploiting TI range advantages. Therefore all you have is the ability to shoot from behind a smoke curtain. And if your squad gets wiped out you will pay dearly for it. I suspect you will need a smoke saturated environment and a fairly open area to get something out of it.

[whdonnelly]

To look at this from another angle, NVG has been standard issue for many US units since the 80s. Therefore it shouldn't cost as much in armies when every line unit has it. It should cost more, but it shouldn't be so much as to throw friendly OOB into something as unrealistic as 2 scout squads and 2 tank vs 2 enemy companies, as I've played a few times.

[Marcello]

"NVG has been standard issue for many US units since the 80s"

But those are built around image intesifier tech rather than TI AFAIK.

[Suhiir]

whdonnelly said:
To look at this from another angle, NVG has been standard issue for many US units since the 80s. Therefore it shouldn't cost as much in armies when every line unit has it. It should cost more, but it shouldn't be so much as to throw friendly OOB into something as unrealistic as 2 scout squads and 2 tank vs 2 enemy companies, as I've played a few times.

That's my concern as well.
While I agree it's improbable we'll see TI gear as common issue for infantry units by 2020 I have noticed in the OOB's there are infantry units (and I don't mean specialized recon, commando, or weapon [Dragon, Stinger] units) as early as 1990 (tho most are around 2010) that have TI. And in the US OOB it's hard to find a vehicle, other then common trucks, after 2010 that doesn't have it.

[SGTGunn]

Hi,

The US currently fields the Raytheon AN/PAS-13 family of thermal weapon sights:

The AN/PAS-13 LTWS for the M16/M4 family
The AN/PAS-13B MTWS for the M240/M249
The AN/PAS-13B HTWS for the M2, MK19, M24 & M82

Total sales for US Army, USMC and SOCOM is 27,000 units or so.

While I'm not 100% sure, I suspect you're normally only going to find these sights mounted on heavier weapons like the M249 and up and only when absolutely mission essential as they are fairly bulky. For rifles and carbines, I believe the AN/PVS-14 + AN/PAQ-4 or AN/PEQ-2 combination (light intensification + IR laser) is far more common.

I don't think we can expect to see thermal sights in common use on every weapon in the US military until they can be reduced in size to something similar to the AN/PVS-14.

Adrian

[pdoktar]

My opinion about the TI infantry costs are that in an assault thery are worth the points as you can use them to spot and suppress enemy infantry in key areas, but generally 1 vs 5 isn´t worth the cost. 1 in 4 could make a difference though. However a sniper with TI could do the suppression trick too, considering it is size 0 and has a marksman rifle, FC and RF. So maybe pure TI-inf without any atgm is too costly at 100 points.

[Suhiir]

I'd tend to agree myself.
I'll be using TI on support weapons (ATGM's, HMG's, FO's) and some top-end recon units but for plain infantry I don't plan to even make it an option.

With a fixed cost of about 80 points, and a fixed range of 40+ for TI it would totally ruin game balance to give it at reduced cost to infantry units (who can't make use of a 40 range anyway).