Shinuyama: Master of the 'baiting' trick

[Omnirizon]

First, there was a great thread that gave a rundown of how to do baiting. I couldn't find it from a cursory look through the Strategy Index. Is it in there, or could someone link it? If it isn't in there it must be added.

Now then, baiting is getting the battle command AI to aggro on a specific squad which will then move (via 'Guard Commander') and cause those aggroed enemy squads to chase them. The theory is that those enemy squads will have to move and fire over long distance, while simultaneously bringing them in short range of your own archers and flankers.

Here is what's required:
0. A well armored commander with lots of HP (this is what the bait squad will move towards).
1. A well armored squad placed where it will get aggro
2. Some chaff, archers, and squads on flank to surround the enemy squads chasing your bait squad.

Here is why Shinuyama does this well
0. It has a well armored commander with lots of HP (Bakemono General)
1. It has well armored archers with lots of HP (Dai Bakemono with Longbow).
2. It has decent flankers, robust chaff, and massable archers.

The big thing they have here is the Dai Bakemono with longbows: they are guaranteed to catch just about any sort of command the opposing player might attempt to get his units to not aggro them. They are:
* archers, and will get 'Attack Archers'
* well armored, and can handle the missile fire.
* have lots of HP and take up lots of space, thus they will satisfy commander AI where it attempts to target things where they will do damage.

To make sure you get both 'Attack Closest' and 'Attack Rear', use two squads, one placed in the front, one in the rear.

The other key ingredient they have is the Bakemono General. Very few nations have such a robust recruitable everywhere commander. These guys have lots of armor and lots of HP. I always (even before figuring out how effective this particular tactic is) would set these guys to 'Hold' 'Hold' 'Attack', just because they can safely wade into a melee and tear stuff up. They ensure that after drawing your enemies forces towards a commander, there is a commander there who is ready for them (with the help of his soldiers of course).

Although the 'perfect setup' is given here, this tactic works beautifully with different variations (maybe Dai Bakemono with No-dashi as baiters, or any heavily armored unit). In fact, when facing indie squads, the computer just seems to always 'Attack Closest' or 'Fire Closest'. In these cases you don't need large archers, nor a squad in the rear to catch 'Attack Rear'. This tactic, with these acceptable variations, is a great way for Shinuyama to plow through Indies (I did 22 provinces in the first 12 turns [ie one year] easily).

A final note: this tactic doesn't scale well with large armies. It gets too difficult to place your bait squads where they will perform as expected, and your other squads will be so big they just get all the aggro. However, it is magic in small and mid-size battles.

Here is a diagram to give the basic set-up:

0. Dai General; set to 'Hold', 'Hold', 'Attack Closest'
1. ~5 Dai Bakemono (Longbow); set to 'Guard Commander'
2. 20+ Bakemono-sho (Yari); set to 'Attack Closest'
3. 20+ Bakemono-sho (Shortbow); set to 'Fire Closest'
4+. 5+ Dai Bakemono; set to 'Attack Rear' or 'Attack Archers'
---------------
|          34
|          2
|0       1   1
|
|           4
---------------

A. Squad 1 will retreat towards Commander 0; all enemies set to 'Attack Closest', 'Attack Monster', or 'Attack Archers' will have aggroed to this squad and will begin to follow them back.
B. Squad 4 will begin to move towards the enemy's rear, but will probably aggro to other passing enemy squads; they might, however, make it to the back and attack archers.
C. Squad 2 will intercept enemies chasing Squad 1.
D. Squad 3 will have short-range shots at passing enemies chasing squad 1.
E. Shortly, commander 0 and squad 1 will move towards enemies chasing them who will by now be engaged with squad 2 and 4.

This tactic will generally a) nullify the effect of enemy archers, as they are forced to move and fire over a long distance at heavily armored units; and b) break up enemy armies, as they get flanked by squad(s) 4.

EDIT: updated to reflect that "Attack Large Monsters" doesn't target size 3

[WraithLord]

BTW, do you mean this thread?

[Sombre]

Is it the case that AI set to 'fire archers' will always target the dai bakemono longbows? From experience it seems as though at least some squads with this order will target the shortbows.

I personally find fiddling around with battle setup, archer decoys and tricks to exploit the AI (I mean exploit in a literal, neutral sense) a bit lame. It sort of messes up the feel of big battles when you end up with droves of archers firing at one shielded dude who is running back toward a random commander.

[Squirrelloid]

Two things:
(1) Size 3 is insufficient to trigger 'large monsters', which will only target size 4 and above. (Otherwise it defaults)
(2) Archer pulling like that is totally excessive for independents, as is the number of units you're fielding. 10 dai-bakemon with longbows given the hold and attack order and placed appropriately far back to avoid being attacked during the 2-turn hold (except against cavalry, they're fine almost as far forward as you can place them) will take 90% of independent provinces without losses on indies 5. Using cute tricks like archer pulling should only be used if you need cute tricks to clear them with available forces, but you're already using enough Dai-Bakemono (~20) to bruteforce virtually every independent there is. (Bogus et al would probably stop 20, i'm not sure anything else would...).

[Squirrelloid]

Also, buying a non-mage commander is a waste of fortress time. Bakemono generals could be Bakemono Sorcerors or Uba instead.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Also, buying a non-mage commander is a waste of fortress time. Bakemono generals could be Bakemono Sorcerors or Uba instead.

I disagree. First: Bakemono need a Bakemono general in order to utilize their Mountain Walk. Second: Sorcerers are very expensive. If a player has, say, three forts, it is very unlikely that they can recruit a Sorcerer at each of them all the time. In general, Shinuyama will have plenty of fort time to diversify their commanders.

Also, I was under the impression that "Attack Large Monster" meant, "Attack the largest unit on the field", not "Attack units >= size 4, else default to 'None'" Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

[chrispedersen]

No.

Attack largest will only target size 5,6 units.
If there are no size 5,6 units, it will then drop down and target size 4.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

I disagree. First: Bakemono need a Bakemono general in order to utilize their Mountain Walk. Second: Sorcerers are very expensive. If a player has, say, three forts, it is very unlikely that they can recruit a Sorcerer at each of them all the time. In general, Shinuyama will have plenty of fort time to diversify their commanders.

Uba are much less expensive than bakemono sorcerors, and have their uses.

If neither Uba nor Bakemono Sorceror, you still have better choices than the general. Such as the Mujina which can be kitted to be an excellent assassin, or one of their stealthy leader options for leading hidden bakemono-sho archer divisions - which i'm pretty sure can also give you mountain survival.

[Gregstrom]

The only stealth leader with mountain survival would be the Bakemono Shaman, and I'm guessing those will be in plentiful supply anyway. I'd say there's a place for recruiting Bakemono Generals though - 40g for a slightly lighter Bane isn't exactly shabby.

[Omnirizon]

In response to Squirrelloid:

that's a difference of opinion then. I think occasionally investing in a Dai General to utilize baiting maneuvers is worth not recruiting a Bakemono Shaman, Uba, or Sorcerer some turn.

The mere fact that gold is a liquid resource, and Shinuyama commanders are all recruitable everywhere, makes Dai Generals worth it: gold not spent in one turn recruiting a pricey mage unit can simply be spent the next; you will basically never have such an income that you can recruit arbitrarily every turn with Shinuyama. If you can recruit cheaper units some turns that increase army performance, then that is worth it. Dai Generals are far superior to indie commanders, and add those extra tactical options.