MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning

[DrPraetorious]

I'm going to release an Alpha version of the mod described below, once I've finished writing it up, that covers only the nations of MA Ulm, MA Machaka, MA Agartha and MA Mictlan.

A final version of the mod will include bennies for MA Man (needs a late game), MA Arco (just needs to be a bit better, all around), MA T'ien Ch'i (likewise), MA Abysia (needs ranged attacks w/out research, better non-capital researchers), MA C'tis, MA Bandar Log (needs castle defense-bonus troops, mainly), and MA Oceania (needs so much help I'm not sure where to start.)

General Note
All national commanders (and most non-magic wielding national priests) would like to be given retinues that appear in each battle using #onebattlespell. I need to test to make sure this works, though.

A typical retinue will be:
total gold + total resources / 2 = (gold + resources) * 1.25
Thus, a Paladin costs 130 gp + 61 RP = 191 * 1.25 = 238
A knight of the chalice costs 80 gp + 61 RP / 2 = 110, so a Paladin gets a retinue of 2 Knights of the Chalice.
A centurion gets (30 + 21) * 1.25 = 63 pts, and Hastati are 22 pts, so he gets a retinue of 2 hastati.
A legatus legionis gets (70 + 21) * 1.25 = 113 pts, and principe are 25 pts, so he gets a retinue of 4 principes.
And so forth.

The whole purpose of this is that independent commanders will not get these retinues. I could make them larger (up to twice that large) if required. Giant nations will not get these retinues. I may re-use some retinues if the # of spells starts to be a problem.

MA Ulm - Needs better troops, higher MR stuff to do, stuff to do with fire gems, way to get strong ritual casters, national combat spells to fight mid and late game opp with what they already have.
Full Plate of Ulm - Prot 22 & Enc 3.
Tower Shield of Ulm - Prot 20 & Enc 1
Kite Shield of Ulm - Prot 25 & Def -1
Battleaxe of Ulm - Dam 14, Att 1, L 0, Magic
Warflail of Ulm - Dam 6, Def -1, Magic
Maul of Ulm - AP, Magic
Hammer of Ulm - AP, Magic
Morningstar of Ulm - Dam 11, Def -1, Magic
Pike of Ulm - Dam 10, Att 3, Magic
Black Halberd of Ulm - Att 3, AP.

All the normal Ulmish infantry (black plate and not) are cheap because they are acremen, and will get a land grant upon their retirement.

They get three catapults out of the forges of Ulm - one shoots fire, one shoots boulders, one shoots sling stones (10 at once.) You also get a Marksman out of the forges of Ulm, who has a black-steel firing crossbow (magic).

You get:
Hammer the Unclean - E2, Thaumaturgy, hurts demons
Hammer the Unliving - E2, Thaumaturgy, hurts undead
Hammer the Unnatural - E2, Thaumaturgy, hurts magical beings
Tempering the Spirit - E4, Thaumaturgy, medium area gets Astral Weapons
Tempering the Wind - E3A, Thaumaturgy, medium area cloud gives SR100 to friendly units. Because I can.
Tempering the Will - is now free (Fat Cost 90), and not MRN.
Tempering the Flesh - E4, Thaumaturgy, Strength for everyone? This one is still up for debate.

Prognostication Engine - S1E3, Const 3, Makes an immobile, S-magic using, research bonus, bad-events preventing object
Forge Furchtlos - E4, Const 3, Makes a living, iron sarcophagus for a guardian of Ulm who has fallen in battle against heretics. The Furchtlos is iron, not flesh, so it is an object of religious reverance, and a source of inspiration in battle to the men of Ulm. Basically a sacred Crusher with Bane of Heresy on the fists.
The Phlogiston Orb - E4F2, Const 5, Makes a floating, F-magic using, metal ball. Unique.
The Mammom Machine - E5A3, Const 7, Makes an immobile, Air/Blood/Nature caster, also a reaper (kills population.) Unique.

MA Machaka - Needs late game, higher MR stuff to do, stuff to do with fire gems, way to get astral.

Machaka Spear to Att 0, Def 0
Hunter Spiders to MR 12.
Spider Rider gets Light Lance.
Spider Knight gets Lance/Machaka Spear.
Black Hunter gets Lance/Bane Blade.
All the spiders get "spider barding" (for +5RP Black Hunter, +2RP on Spider Knight)
Sorcerer gets 10% Random.
Witch Doctor nolonger needs lab (-> "randoms" x 3)
Black Sorcerer gets a second 10% random.
Soreceress should be guaranteed not-old, sacred, cost 165 gp, have a high MR (14) in spider-form, and not lose magic in spider form.

Animate Archer - D1F1, Enchantment, "Witch Doctors are eager to do favors for the unwary, but they carry a terrible price. In death, those who ask favors can be called upon to fight for the witch doctor. Many of these hapless souls are skilled with the bow."
Leaf Burner - F1N1, Enchantment, "The Witch Doctor can crown a warrior in burning leaves, incinerating his enemies who dare to come near." Gives nearby units Fire Shield.
Fearsome Presence - D1, Enchantment, Gives you Fear (maybe friends as well?)
Hunger of the Forest - N1D1, Enchantment, Sends a small spider (not the spider cav! small ones!) to kill someone for only 1 NG.
Hunger of the God Forest - N3D2, Enchantment, Sends a hunter spider to kill someone for 8 NG.
Wrestle Tikolosh - N4, Enchantment, You fight a Tikolosh (maybe you actually fight one?), Tikolosh is a one-armed, one-legged dwarf, with astral magic, healing, and assassinate.

Ghost Animals - N1D1, Conjuration, Makes combat-duration animals (they are returned spirits of the dead)
Roar of the Kings - F3, Conjuration, Makes a bunch of summer lions at the edge of battlefield.
Burning Ghosts - F3D1, Conjuration, makes spider-fire casters in battle, who then show up and do what they do.
Chameleon Spider - N3, Conjuration, They're sacred, they have glamour, they're not as big as hunter spiders, but they are even more deadly.
Return Sorcerer - N4D2, Conjuration, "When nearing death, a sorcerer of great power can consume vulture beaks, to ensure that he returns from the land of the dead in the form of a great spider with vast power over his forest domain. These ancient ones can be called back to the land to serve the Awakening God."
Return Sorcerer - F4D2, Conjuration, "When nearing death, a sorcerer or black sorcerer of great power can consume the skin of albinos, to ensure that he returns from the land of the dead in the form of a great spider with smouldering fangs. These ancient ones can be called back to the land to serve the Awakening God."
Return Sorcerer - E4D2, Conjuration, "When nearing death, a sorcerer or black sorcerer of great power can consume the tails of rats, to ensure that he returns from the land of the dead in the form of a great spider, dwelling beneath and command the bones of the earth. These ancient ones can be called back to the land to serve the Awakening God."
Call Kohdumodumo - W6D3, Conjuration, Only castable underwater. Summons a unique, amphibious dragon (a blue tarrasque, basically) with onebattlespell "Darkness", and a fair pile of magic himself.

MA Agartha - Needs a research bonus, needs some ability to use statues really early, needs a much easier time getting to Darkness.
Temperature Preference to Heat 1.
Earth Reader gets research bonus +2.
Golem Crafter gets a 10% FWED random, and the ability to freespawn (as an action, free of cost!) an attentive statue. The attentive statue spell makes a lot more attentive statues (varies with earth magic).
Oracle of the Ancients gets a 100% FWE random, and a *second* 10% FWED random.

MA Mictlan
+4 RP on high priest of the sky, +2 RP on priest of the sky.
Additionally, 20% chance of third pick on rain priest and sun priest.
Starting army needs to be unbugged.

Law of the Jaguar Toad - Conj 3, N1, 1+2/lvl Jaguar Toads for 2 NG.
Law of the Hummingbird - Conj 4, F1, 3+2/lvl Humming Birds for 3 FG.
Law of the Jade Serpent - Conj 5, W3, 2+1/lvl jade serpents for 8 WG.
Law of the Monster Toad - Conj 6, N2, 2+1/lvl Monster Toads for 4 NG.
Law of the Vision Serpent - Conj 7, S2, 1+1/lvl Vision Serpents for 6 SG.
Law of the Harpy Eagle - Conj 8, A1, 3+2/lvl Harpy Eagle for 6 AG.

Humming Birds fly and have a fire burst attack, but they turn into FR100%, magic-being sun warriors when wounded.
Vision Serpents are non-commander Couatl's with Glamour.
Harpy Eagles are sacred giant eagles.

[Burnsaber]

That sounds.. ambitious. I think that # of spell slots is really going to be a problem. I'd probably eliminate some of the national spells for Ulm/Machaka. I mean, does a single nation really need 15 national spells?

Also, I have already done a bit towards the MA Oceania problem in my UWGIM mod. If you want to, you can also furhter boost them by giving the EA Oceania summon for Cursed Queens. Feel free to take and edit the changes that mod makes.

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, this looks like a content mod, not a balance mod, and certain aspects of it *substantially* change gameplay.

Also, one of the nations you're tweaking don't really need the help. I wouldn't call MA Mictlan weak *except* in the context of other Mictlans. It measures up fine against other MA nations. (In fact, some of the changes you're making will almost certainly make it OP, like the RP bonus - as if it didn't have an abundance of cheap mages).

I might steal some of your MA Agartha ideas though (particularly attentive statue related changes), although I think the most important first step is making attentive statues sacred.

I'm resisting the urge to make specific change comments for the moment.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

All national commanders (and most non-magic wielding national priests) would like to be given retinues that appear in each battle using #onebattlespell.

So you're basically removing all assassins from the game?

MA Mictlan doesn't need boosts.

[Gregstrom]

I suspect that 'commanders' doesn't include mages. If it includes national assassins, things could be interesting.

[DrPraetorious]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

So you're basically removing all assassins from the game?

MA Mictlan doesn't need boosts.

Obviously I disagree about MA Mictlan. It's not as weak as the other three nations on that list, I'll grant; but even with these bonuses it will still be somewhat weaker than Mictlan in either of the other two eras.

Gregstrom is right that national mages won't get retinues, except *possibly* for a few national mages which pay an unreasonable premium for high leadership - Abyssian Anathemants, Marignon Inquisitors.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

I suspect that 'commanders' doesn't include mages. If it includes national assassins, things could be interesting.

I'm looking at the national assassins. Bane Spiders definitely get a retinue. Again, it may be resolved based on leadership - so the generic Ermor/Marignon/Pythium assassin would not get a retinue.

[Squirrelloid]

How MA Mictlan matches up to EA/LA Mictlan is *irrelevant* to MA nation balance. MA Mictlan matches up fine to other MA nations, its probably in the top half of MA nations.

EA/LA Mictlan are arguably overpowered and should probably be nerfed. Raising MA Mictlan to their level is not a good idea.

[DrPraetorious]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

How MA Mictlan matches up to EA/LA Mictlan is *irrelevant* to MA nation balance. MA Mictlan matches up fine to other MA nations, its probably in the top half of MA nations.

EA/LA Mictlan are arguably overpowered and should probably be nerfed. Raising MA Mictlan to their level is not a good idea.

You're correct that the balance vs. other MA nations is what is relevant, but, obviously, I think you are quite mistaken. I'm not particularly interested in debating this, but I assert that MA Mictlan is weak, compared to the balance targets for this mod, which are:
MA Ermor
MA Pythium
MA Marignon
MA Caelum
MA Pangaea
MA Vanheim
MA Jotunheim
MA Shinuyama
...

Therefore, I am giving MA Mictlan stuff to make it comparable to MA Ermor etc. My followup will be a balance mod intended to balance the "weak camp" nations in the late era (Pythium, Jomon, etc.) with the "medium camp" nations (Agartha, T'ien Ch'i), while allowing the "strong camp" nations - LA Mictlan, LA Ermor, LA R'lyeh are being left alone.

Regarding bodyguards being "thematic" - it would be thematic to buy Wardens and use them as bodyguards for Crones, but you will never ever do this for many reasons starting with: the Crone cannot bless her bodyguards.

Anyway, free bodyguards for Mages would make assassins useless, so very few Mages will get them.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

You're correct that the balance vs. other MA nations is what is relevant, but, obviously, I think you are quite mistaken. I'm not particularly interested in debating this, but I assert that MA Mictlan is weak, compared to the balance targets for this mod, which are:
MA Ermor
MA Pythium
MA Marignon
MA Caelum
MA Pangaea
MA Vanheim
MA Jotunheim
MA Shinuyama
...

I disagree. MA Mictlan > MA Marignon in my opinion, and probably Vanheim too.

[kianduatha]

I'd suggest that MA Man's mages would all get at least one Warden per, if just for theme.

If you're giving Ulm all superior equipment...why don't you actually just plain give them the black steel items as armor? Is 23 some magic number that's impossible to kill? Even so, they'll only be invincible for a turn or two of melee before they start getting critted. No big deal. Keep them in Full Helmets instead of Blacksteel ones if you're concerned. No need to use up a bunch of weapon/armor slots when there are perfectly fine ones right there.