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  #1  
Old August 22nd, 2010, 01:51 AM

runequester runequester is offline
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Default How much arty ?

50's force:

3 companies of infantry (one motorized)
3 companies of armour.
A few extra machine guns and scout units.

How much artillery would you buy for a campaign ?

How would you split it between mortars, light artillery and big heavy guns (150 and up) ?

For the sake of discussion, its a Soviet force, but would your arty selection differ based on nationality?
Cheers!
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  #2  
Old August 22nd, 2010, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: How much arty ?

Hah

One section/troop per company plus one or 2 for luck or the HQ if you want as a general sort of rule for anyone.

50s Soviet possibly a whole load more if still using WW2 arty techniques.
Guns should be mortars & 122s you can add heavy stuff & rockets with support for assaults etc.
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  #3  
Old August 22nd, 2010, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: How much arty ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runequester View Post
50's force:

3 companies of infantry (one motorized)
3 companies of armour.
A few extra machine guns and scout units.

How much artillery would you buy for a campaign ?

How would you split it between mortars, light artillery and big heavy guns (150 and up) ?

For the sake of discussion, its a Soviet force, but would your arty selection differ based on nationality?
Cheers!
All armies generally allocate about one battery of tube arty per battalion as a basic norm.

Since you have 2 battalions (6 companies) worth - 2 batteries, on or off the map to your taste in the core would be fine.

You could stretch it to 3, if you decided to rationalise to yourself that your task force is the 'point' of the brigade and so has the fires of the entire brigade's battalion of arty allocated to it. And/or use the regimental 6x120mm mortar company in your core, for the same rationalisation. SP 120mm (Nona etc) seem to be the realm of para mechanised forces.

The rifle battalion will have a mortar platoon (82mm) of its own in its weapons company. The tank battalion has no weapons company.

That would be your arty slice if delaying, or in a meeting engagement.

Aircraft, if offered - don't count to arty. Use as many as you like from support. But don't have any core helicopters, its gamey.

As Soviet - then your arty would be 122 mm towed or SP. In the 50s or 60s or so, it may be 76/85mm. However, after maybe 1995 or so then the 152mm is just as likely for regimental level support. (Most of the tube arty on both sides in the Georgia war seems to have been SP 152mm). MRL should not be in your core - these are corps level assets.

If attacking (advance in SP terms) - allow a doubling of the arty from support troops, tube or rocket. Any size you like, but probably rarely heavy (over 152mm) tube arty. So you could allow yourself 2 or maybe 3 extra batteries bought from support in an advance.

If assaulting - then the sky is the limit, so buy as many extra batteries as you like from the support points. That would also be about the only time you would see heavy tube arty in support (over 152mm).

if Defending - you might allow yourself an extra defensive battery added from support. It may be a medium battery, or MLRS, or the regimental 120mm mortar battery (if not already in your core).

Andy
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 12:15 PM

runequester runequester is offline
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Default Re: How much arty ?

Alright excellent. That gives some guidelines to go by.


I need to practice artillery tactics better as well. I have a bad habit of trying to scatter things too much, to have rounds coming in everywhere, rather than concentrating on hammering one or two targets thoroughly.

edit: A battery would be 2 individual off-map units correct in SP ? Since they tend to have 3 tubes each.

Last edited by runequester; August 22nd, 2010 at 12:34 PM..
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: How much arty ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runequester View Post
Alright excellent. That gives some guidelines to go by.


I need to practice artillery tactics better as well. I have a bad habit of trying to scatter things too much, to have rounds coming in everywhere, rather than concentrating on hammering one or two targets thoroughly.

edit: A battery would be 2 individual off-map units correct in SP ? Since they tend to have 3 tubes each.
Look at your individual army.

Some armies have 4 tube batteries (in the game, usually one off-map element). Some have 6 (usually 2x3), others 8 (chiefly the UK and Commonwealth - 2x4 gun troops). The UK had a 12 gun battery organisation briefly in 1940 - but dropped it as too cumbersome.

Heavier arty can come in smaller batteries than field arty.

The UK 2 lumps of 4 is sometimes complained about when a number of batteries is agreed in PBEM, by the foreign opposition whose batteries are mere 4 gun elements !

The minimum unit of fire is usually the battery - both platoons will be fired together at the same area, give or take 100 yds or so. But in reality, the battalion is the usual 'stonk', all in less than 500m separation.

Single platoon fire on widely separated targets is harassing fire, or perhaps useful for taking out individual mortar teams.

However if a target is worth firing on then it is best to drop the entire artillery on it as a hammer blow, since the effect of arty is non-linear. Consider the following:

In the arty chapter of Isby, he states that the Soviets consider that the following have the equivalent effect on infantry in the open:
One three-battalion volley (54 shells)
Ten one-batallion volleys (180 shells, about 3 minutes at 3 RPM)
43 one-battery volleys (258 shells, about 15 minutes at 3 RPM )

(Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army, P173)

Thus - it can be seen that the number of simultaneous shells arriving greatly multiplies the destructive effect. A 6 gun battery has to work the same area for 15 minutes to achieve the same target effect as a single brigade volley, expending 4.7 times the amount of shells.

As for the basic number of shells required Projectile Expenditure Rate (PER)

For 122mm arty the PER norms per hectare are as follows:
Troops in cover and weapons in prepared strong-points:
47 rounds predicted or 35 if fire is adjusted
(presumably here they mean overhead cover, as VT ammo will not be used here)

Troops under cover and APC in a hasty strong-point:
35 rounds predicted map fire or 26 if adjusted.
(This probably means open topped trenches)

Openly deployed troops or ATGM:
33 rounds map fire or 25 rounds adjusted
(This presumably means prone in hasty defences)

That gives the basic PER for the hectare (10,000 sq m) for a battalion (18 tubes) fire unit (presumed by me - not clear in the text).

Then a multiplier is applied for the Level Of Destruction (LOD) required:
10% - 1.0 (ie the figures above are just for a 10% LOD)
25% - 3.28
50% - 9.48
70% - 21.1
90% - 53.57

The Soviets considered 20-30% LOD to be adequate for suppression/neutralisation fires, and 70% as the minimum adequate for a "destruction shoot".

A battalion would thus need to fire 992 shells for a 70% destruction LOD over a hectare on troops dug into strong-points with overhead cover.(47 * 21.1). 55 volleys, or about 20 minutes continuous fire at a sustained 3 RPM (if the 'gun bunnies' could heave 122MM for that rate for that length of time - 2RPM might be more long term practical - say a ~30 minute bombardment). For a 25% neutralisation level, 47 * 3.28 = 155 shells. 9 volleys, about 3 minutes fire @ 3RPM.

(Isby pp169-170, figures are for the 122mm D-30 howitzer firing HE)

Andy
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  #6  
Old August 22nd, 2010, 03:54 PM

runequester runequester is offline
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Default Re: How much arty ?

this is all usefull stuff. Artillery is truly a science and an artform


So I think I have a pretty good grasp on the artillery. What about mortars ?

Would you put mortars in with the regular artillery, primarily smoke or something else ?

I tend to use mortars a lot as "opportunity artillery" firing at enemy infantry moving in the open where you can inflict significant casualties even with 81mm's for a turn or two.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: How much arty ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runequester View Post
Alright excellent. That gives some guidelines to go by.


I need to practice artillery tactics better as well. I have a bad habit of trying to scatter things too much, to have rounds coming in everywhere, rather than concentrating on hammering one or two targets thoroughly.

edit: A battery would be 2 individual off-map units correct in SP ? Since they tend to have 3 tubes each.
In game terms the simple way to think of it & why the hammer blow is more effective.

Fire 3 tubes at the same or adjacent hexes so you get overlap in one turn vs one tube firing alone for 3 turns.

The first case has probably caused more suppresion & the target(s) get one chance to recover. The second case the target has had 3 rally chances.

The second case harrasing fire is only really useful to let units close range a bit without being seen & smoking them out is often a better solution.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 04:30 PM

Marek_Tucan Marek_Tucan is offline
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Default Re: How much arty ?

harrasing fire can be VERY useful to disrupt enemy truck-borne infantry advance in "safe zone"

EDIT: Mortars are good "first responders" and while their range is limited, it can be a blessing as you do not waste them in supporting other units.
Generally, I treat 81mm's as "Co commander's pocket artillery" (or Bn) and heavy arty as heavy hitters.

Pretty nifty thing mostly in WWII are infantry guns.
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Old August 22nd, 2010, 05:36 PM

runequester runequester is offline
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Default Re: How much arty ?

Imp and Marek, thank you

Good point on blowing up trucks. In the game I played this morning, I managed to lose 2 T34/76 to lucky hits from Brit 4" mortars
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