The neutral challenge

[Barnacle Bill]

I got to thinking about “playing as a neutral” after a recent discussion in another topic about switching sides, etc… Another inspiration is the various science fiction stories where a planet (usually Earth) first discovers interstellar travel and finds the galaxy already full of big established empires, but nevertheless rises to great power status itself because of some cultural or technological advantage vs the alien empires (for example, the rise of the Terran Confederation at the expense of the Vilani Imperium in the history of the “Traveller” roleplaying game universe). Also influencing my thoughts is how “Non-Player Races” work in Starfire. There, the NPR does not know about warp points until a player enters their system and contacts them, but thereafter are “activated” and can 4X right along side the players. In other words, they act like an SE4 Neutral until “activated”, then like an SE4 AI Player. So, I thought it might make an interesting challenge to play that way as a human, and see if human smarts vs the AI is enough to win against that sort of head start. I’m in a game where I’m doing that now. I intend to post a formal set of “rules” for this single-player scenario later, but I thought it might be interesting for some folks to read about how it is going so far.

It has not gone as I figured, largely because of board placement. So, lesson #1 for this scenario is start over if you land in a corner, because they might not ever come activate you otherwise. I began in a corner, and after I fully exploited my home system and got bored (no contact YET!), I began very cautious exploration (I expect there will be a “limited activation rule” for that situation). My home system is very near the galactic SE corner, and has three warp points (E, S & W). The one to the E is a dead end – planets but only the one warp point. The one to S has planets but only two warp points, the one to N that connects to my home system and one to W that connects to a black hole system. The black hole system has two warp points, the second of which is N. The E warp point from my home system connects to an asteroid system. The Asteroid system has three warp points, the one to my home system, one S to the black hole system, and one E to “out there”.

So, I’ve colonized all the rock planets in the three systems and converted all their atmospheres. I’m just finishing up colonizing all the ice planets. I’m remote mining everything I can’t colonize via mining satellites. Tech-wise, I’m up to battlecruisers & level IV on the various ship systems, and have monolith facility III’s & research facility III’s everywhere. I’m about ready to come out onto the galactic stage, since they won’t come in after me.

I do know a little about “out there” because I had to do some switching to troubleshoot RCE’s, and because I set the game up to be able to see all scores. There are 8 AI player races, all ahead of me except for ships (because I have a huge mothball fleet – probably won’t allow that before “activation” in the “rules” for future games). They’ve pretty much filled the galaxy, and are fighting wars and making alliances and having a grand old time, unaware of the danger lurking in the dark corner. There were originally 5 neutrals. Two more appeared in mid-game, one of which later disappeared from the score window but still appears in the players window (I think that means it got killed). I assume the mid-game appearances reflect planetary revolts. One of those times I had to go fix an RCE, the race causing the RCE was an “ancient” race and partnered with another race (at war with them next RCE) and the galactic map showed a presence by the partner race in the system connecting to my asteroid system. So, I expect they will be the host for my coming out party. However, I fixed the data file causing the RCE’s several years ago (game time) and haven’t peeked lately. When I Last looked, the AI’s had lots of dreadnoughts and war fleets of over 30 ships. So, my strategy with my 9 BC’s is going to have to be to avoid war and try to pick off one planet at a time under Non-Intercourse, hoping the AI victim has bigger fish to fry on other fronts. I think I’ll need a lot of mines & sats, too. As I get more of an industrial base, I can expand the fleet and get more aggressive.

[WhiteHojo]

Mr. Bill, this sounds like a very interesting concept. Just reading your post, many ideas, drawbacks and advantages popped into my head. This would be the ultimate in Human vs. AI - no more complaining about the weak AI anymore, although playing a regular game w/High(X5) AI bonus on is definately not easy.

I'll check back for more ideas, and possible rules later

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[WhiteHojo]

Ok - just some ideas off the top of my head but any feedback would be appreciated.

1) Start play in a Large Map - 100+ systems. Try for a position toward the middle. If don't like the starting position, try again.

2) Play w/only NonNeutral AIs - I believe Neutrals tend to slow down the Reg AI empire's expansion.

3) Obviously, no expansion/exporation outside your "Home" system untill 1st contact.

4) Can't select "Ancient" as a Race Charateristic - kinda obvious reason

5) Put a cap on researching Stellar Manipulation past Lvl 2 untill after 1st contact - reason: until you discover that there are warp points via 1st contact, you shouldn't be able to research em. (can't research a car till you know about the wheel)
**Or maybe reorder the Stell Manip tree and move warp tech higher while still allowing research in planet construction.

6) Can't research Applied Intelligence until after 1st contact - reason: if you think you are the only race in existence, then you don't need Intel ops against another race

7) Possibly put a time limit on the isolation - such as, if no contact w/in the 1st 100 turns, allow expansion in some limited fashion (say, can only expand to adjacent systems)

8) Not allowed to place Mines, Sats, Bases, Ships (nothing!) on warp points until after 1st contact - reason: If you don't know Warp Points are there until after 1st C, you shouldn't be able to mine, etc. them

9) To prevent the massive buildup of ships, etc. that Bill mentioned earlier, place a limit on the number of WarShips allowed. Maybe, 5 Capital Ships/1 Carrier Type Ship/2 Supply-Repair-MineLayer-SateliteLayer-Etc. Ships/1 PopTransport Per Planet- No need for a large navy if you're the only race out there. Limit the ships to only a peacekeeping navy size or something.

10) Also should place some type of limit on the number of Troops (say 50 per planet), Mines (?), Sats (say 25?) & WP's per planet till 1st contact.

Limiting military units per planet could represent some type of loose Federation Govt in existence b/t all planets in the system, each w/its own military until news of other races is discovered - which could then allow the basis for a "Unification" of your race under your Supreme Command.

Just some ideas I'm throwin around.



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[Atrocities]

I have to admit that I really like your idea to play as a neutral after one is discovered. It would be very advantages to this game is Malfador would allow technology level set ups for each individual empire during game set up. That way you could set the technology level of each player where you wanted it, and thus play as the strongest or the weakest player in the game.

Thanks for the game idea here.

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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards

[Daynarr]

This is a good RP idea. I recall playing it in the demo, but of course 100 turn limit didn't allow me to finish it. It was VERY interesting though.

[Barnacle Bill]

Here are my rules for the Neutral Challenge, based on learnings from my game so far:

The Neutral Challenge is a set of house rules for playing an SE4 scenario in which the human

player is a minor power trying to win against AI empires that have huge head starts. The

basic assumption is that your race is initially unaware of the existence of intelligent life

other than itself, or of what warp points are or how to use them. They remain unaware of

these things until "activated" by an AI empire entering their home system and creating First

Contact. Assume for the purpose of the game that warp points only work through some

deliberate interaction with a ship’s engines, and if you don’t know how to do it then you

can’t "warp". Your race therefore cannot do anything it would not logically do in

isolation. Even in isolation, however, the central government of your race would maintain

armed forces in order to prevent colony worlds within the system from seceding, etc... but

would not stockpile defenses against an imaginary alien threat.

The rules:

1) You cannot use a race having the "Ancient" trait. It is also suggested that you start

over if your home system is in a far corner of the galaxy, as it may take forever for the

AI's to find ad activate you.

2) "Full Activation" occurs when any alien vessel enters a system of your empire and

initiates First Contact. At that point, all restrictions are lifted and you may play

normally.

3) Your race is initially at a state of "Inactivation".

4) While in the state of Inactivation, you must play according to the following

restrictions:

a) No exploring warp points. The AI ministers which would do this automatically must not

be turned on.
b) The total number of units that you have, whether in space, as planetary cargo or as

cargo on ships, cannot exceed the current total cargo capacity of all your planets added

together, plus 1 remote mining satellite per asteroid belt or uncolonized planet. Improved

remote mining satellites can be built in excess of this limit for the purpose of replacing

old ones which are deployed, but the old ones must be brought back to a shipyard and

scrapped as soon as possible.
c) You cannot give any ship or fleet a sector as a destination, unless it contains a planet

or asteroids, unless if it contains a storm and your ship has a storm-destroying component

you wish to use on the storm, or if it contains a star and you are building a ring- or

-sphere world there. You have no reason to go to or hang about in warp point sectors or

empty space, if you are not expecting company.
d) Satellites can only be deployed at colony planets, except for the remote mining

satellites per "b" of this rule.
e) Bases may only be built in sectors containing colony planets, with an exception for

remote mining bases. A remote mining base must use 50% or more of its volume for remote

mining components, and can be built in any asteroid or planet sector, but only 1 per such

sector.
f) You cannot mothball any ship or base.
g) You cannot research any tech which grants only components for opening/closing warp

points or destroying stars, unless they lead to other techs which grant other components

that you are allowed to use. If you discover any such components under that exception, or

via colonizing artifact planets, you still may not build any ships mounting such systems.

Remember - you don't know what a warp point is yet, and why would you destroy your own star?

5) "Full exploitation" of a system is defined as having colonized every planet for which

you have the necessary tech, and having the maximum possible population and number of

facilities on each colony. Once you have fully exploited your home system, your race can

somehow "accidentally" discover warp points. However, your race is still ruled by a very

conservative regime and will only explore one warp point at a time, and will stop exploring

as soon as it finds a system with colonizable planets until that system is also fully

exploited. This state is called "Limited Activivation".

6) Under Limited Activation, the restrictions of #4 still apply with the following addition

and/or changes:

a) You may now move to and warp through warp points, but only to explore the warp point as

allowed in this rule, or to move around between explored systems.
b) You may select one warp point to explore at a time. The selection must be a warp point

in your your home system if possible. If they are all explored, it must be a warp point in

a system one warp point away from your home system. If they are all explored, it must be a

warp point in a system two systems from your home system, etc...
c) If, upon exploring any warp point, you find a system not containing any alien colonies,

ships, units, etc... you must immediately claim that system. If the newly claimed system

contains any habitable planets, you must then fully exploit that system before you can

explore another warp point.
d) Your unit limit is now increased sufficiently to allow one recon satellite per explored

system in which you have neither a colony or a remote mining base.
e) You may now research and build warp point opening and closing components, but you may

not close any warp point that you have not yet explored, or open any warp point to an

unexpored system unless you have explored all systems that you can reach via the existing

warp points.
f) All systems claimed under "c" of this rule count thereafter as "a system of your empire"

for purposes of causing full activation under rule #2. In other words, if aliens enter

them, or you come back to them and find aliens in them, you are fully activated.
g) If, upon exploring any warp point, you find a system not containing any alien colonies,

ships, units, etc... you are Fully Activated and all restrictions are limited.

7) OPTIONAL (harder) Ignore "G" in Rule #6. If, during exploration under Limited

Activation, you enter any system containing alien ships, colonies or units, you then move to

a state of "Defensive Activation". Defensive Activation is also invoked if your exploring

fleet hits mines, whether or not they survive and whether or not they swept any of the

mines. The system containing the mined sector counts as a system containing enemy units.

Under "Defensive Activation", your race's leadership wants to pursue an "ostrich" stategy -

ignore the aliens and hope they go away. You are still not taking a rational approach to

the galaxy (kind of like an SE4 neutral). You must immediately withdraw the exploring

ship(s) back through the warp point by which they entered the system with the alien

presence. Under Defensive Activation, all the restrictions of Limited Activation apply with

the following modifications:

a) You cannot again transit any warp point which you know through exploration, or believe

by looking at the warp lines on the galaxy map, leads to a system in which you found an

alien presence during initial exploration. You may continue to explore other warp points as

in Limited Activation.
b) You may not send any Messages to the race(s) you encountered, not even replies to their

Messages.
c) You may now station fleets, build bases or deploy units in the sectors of your systems

which contain the warp points that you cannot transit under "a" of this rule. Mines &

satellites deployed in such sectors do not count toward your unit limit. You still cannot

fortify the unexplored warp points that you believe lead to unexplored systems, or which

connect the systems that you have claimed.
d) You may use warp point closing components to close the warp points that you are allowed

to fortify.
d) If aliens enter your claimed system via one of the warp points you have fortified per

"c" of this rule, and do not survive either the transit (because of your mines) or the

immediate battle with your other defenses in that sector, full activation does not occur.

For this reason, you may wish not to excercise your option under "c" of this rule to fortify

your end of the warp point, or under "d" to close it, so as to expedite Full Activation.